5:2 Thread number 63: 7 days without chocolate makes one weak ! On 5:2 you only diet 2 days a week.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Oooh, thanks for getting back to me bigchoc. From what you've said I'm pretty much doing all you suggested - I split the meals into 2, I usually eat 200 at lunch and 300 for tea, all protein and veg, never any carbs. I get the crash from 5-bedtime pretty much no matter when I eat, so don't know how much they are related, I drink coffee (can't stomach expresso with no sugar but do drink black caff), and I try to get an early night. Hmmm. I will try the marmite though, and the walk is a good idea - I should be doing more of that anyway so will work that in.

Frustratingly, the scales tell me I've GONE UP 2lb this week, but I hope it's probably more likely to be water retention as I've not overeaten this week at all. I am also aware I need to get moving again to help improve health generally - I think you have a thread on that so will have a nose around. I can't do anything high impact (no running, skipping, not too much walking etc).

Thanks again for the advice! And well done to everyone else on here seeing SV and just general life improvements - it's very inspiring.

Morning all,

Weigh in today has me at 13 st 10lb. So thats 1.5lb off today

Not sure what to do about next week. I have 2 days of 3hr exams (OU uni exams) Tuesday and Wednesday, so I'm thinking fasting those days might not be a good idea. Will probably see how I feel and maybe switch my normal Tuesday for a mini or just increase the cals a bit (thats the less stressful of the two exams!)

Welcome Cheerful

Congrats all on the successful FDs

Well done to knotted and best on the SVs

And good luck mooey for the Friday fast!

Congrats on your SVs, MrD, Knotted < kicks out legs and dances to the Volga Boatmen >
< Kicks ginger beer to the floor, swears smiles sweetly and mops up foam >

MrD Give your brain plenty of nourishment & fuel, no junk.
I'd suggest healthy maintenance until your usual Thursday FD, with optionally TDEE-300 on Tuesday.
Alternatively a mini on Monday and a proper FD Thursday
Save the alcohol for after the exams - you need all your brain cells functioning at 100%
Good luck for your exams

Knotted Some people lose in fits & starts; other are fairly linear unless they have social occasions etc

cheerfullady Weight can vary a few lb over the week due to undigested food, water retained due to very carby or salty food, alcohol, hormonal swings etc.

However, I recommend you mfp for a full week - as a reality check - just to make sure you aren't eating more on the NFDs. Compare to what you should roughly average on NFDs: TDEE Calc

Hi all

NFD going well here. Think I'm out the other side of my wobble thank goodness. Am going to stay very mindful of how the stresses around me can drag me down and effect my eating. Am so determined to get back to a healthy weight.

Have stuck with exact planned food today , no snacks, lots of water, extra protein and all is well

Well done best knotted MrD* on all those SVs

Congratulations little

Good luck in exams MrD

Have a good holiday drop

Mooey hope FD going OK - keep drinking the water!

cheerful I can't do high impact exercise (yet) but have gradually buit up daily walking, distance and pace, and it has helped me LOADS

Hi cheerful just dipping in to say this is exactly what has happened to me so don't lose heart!
I seem to go along not losing anything or even gaining very random lbs and then it suddenly goes. I think my body hangs on to lbs for dear life!
I've been taking my measurements every week too and this seems much more consistent.

Well done, clear She's back !

cheerful I recommend you start lifting, simce that is not high impact.
Have a look at the OP on our 5:2 / IF ExerciseThread3 You can start with exercises at home without equipment.

I suggest you work the major muscle groups, which have the most effect on shape and which burn the most energy:
Pressups, tricep dips on a step, deep squats, lunges, plank, situps
Aim for 3 non-consecutive days per week, starting at say 20 mins sessions.

Feel free to post there if you need more advice or more detailled instructions / pictures how to do any exercise

Kitchen closing at 502.
Managed to avoid cake and crisps at a friends, and DP ordered dominoes for his dinner.

Feeling bloody virtuous!!!

Was supposed to do a third fast today, but I have a stomach bug so I nixed it and settled for under TDEE, though I'm not sure how much of that I'm absorbing. I'll take it easy for the next couple of days anyway.

Congrats to everyone who had successful FDs today! It's not easy resisting temptation, you're doing great!

Yes BCF !! Thanks for all the support as always

Great NSV Mooey!

Get well soon Ssennui

Have a good day everyone!

< waves to clear >
Morning everyone. Any Saturday fasters ?

Well done on nailing your FD so exactly, Mooey and especially your resisting junk NSV

I hope you are 100% again soon, nunni Definitely don't fast atm.

Stomach Bugs
I strongly recommend you don't fast until a week after symptoms have stopped.
This is because your gut is still getting back to its normal balance - some fasters have found symptoms return when they didn't allow this recovery period.

While you can't fast, drink lots of water and if you feel hungry, then have plain, healthy food within TDEE, aiming to replenish your lost nutrients.
Avoid anything that will irritate your gut and slow recovery, especially alcohol, fruit juice, chilli, very spicy food

If you are too unwell to fast, you are too unwell for junk or alcohol

Get well soon ssennui!

Weigh day today - 3lb off. Makes up for last weeks gain and more.

Thanks for the amazing support on this thread

not fastingBCF here but one of those all important NFDs of 3 healthy wholefood meals, NO snacks and lots of water combo!! Have a good FD, no doubt combined with 3 hours weightlifting, 2 hours running, several bike rides and a shot or two of strong black coffee!!

Hey well done Mooey that's fantastic!

Well done on your SV, Mooey You sound like one of those folk who naturally lose in fits & starts.
So, don't worry about blips; you know they can soon reverse into an SV.

Good luck with your NFD, clear and to everyone else aiming for a healthy weekend.

Today looks as though it may be turning into a mini fast of sorts! Skipped breakfast (the norm for me now rather than the exception) and been busy since so haven't got round to eating. Just water and coffee (with milk) so far. Still not feeling particularly hungry, and going to cinema with DD soon, so may just go through to this evening. I wasn't going to MFP today.but might, just out of curiosity.

Well done to everyone achieving SVs and NSVs; my weigh in was yesterday and a loss of - wait for it - 0.4lb was recorded ! I seem to be going in fits and starts, a la mooey, but I'll be happy as long as the overall trend is down

It may be a small SV, but it all adds to the downward trend, mtum
You are learning good habits for the longterm.
if you are losing reasonably, but just in fits & starts, then relax.
However, if you think your average loss is a bit slow, then mfp would be useful to check your deficit for a week or two.

Thanks bcf . I seem to have an irrational aversion to MFP, probably because I cook most meals from scratch and don't tend to use recipes. I find MFP easy when using ready meals and bought soups, but otherwise it's a bit of a pain.

I've a feeling that my appetite may be adjusting, so will give it a bit more time - I'm in no particular hurry - but I know I'll probably have to MFP if the weight loss stops altogether...

mttum you can add your own recipes to MFP, so although for the first time you'll have to add each ingredient individually, you can then save it eg 'shepherds pie'.

Don't be disheartened though, you are clearly going in the right direction!

Hi mttum

I've never used MFP - in the beginning I made a Word list of the cal counts of all the veggies I used and just totted them up every time I cooked. But eventually I worked out that my basic veg stew made from half dozen veg + a tin of tomatoes + seasoning and simmered for a bit came to roughly 30 cals per serving spoonful. About 4 of these, plus a small potato, say, came to about 200 cals and would generally fill me up. If I did want seconds, another spoonful is only an extra 30 cals.

Any variation on this - say by adding lentils or red kidney beans - can easily be checked by referring to my list. The cal count of any new ingredient can be swiftly found by searching online e.g. '100g dried apricots'.

Don't forget to measure your waist & hips, mtum
SV is a crude measure and can be misleading about body composition, even more so for men.
Some 5:2ers have noticed they are "smaller" on IF than they would expect for their weight, because IF - in addition to reducing bodyfat - retains, or may even increase, lean mass.
In contrast, with conventional daily CR diets, weight lost is 20-25% muscle and may be up to 50% for some of the crash "maple syrup water" diets.

If you lift, I'd monitor measurements for chest & biceps too.

B&W With your dedicated lifting work alongside IF, I'm sure you would have noticed an increase in muscle weight / measurements, but I expect you didn't note these before your started any pressups ?
In future, I'll advise blokes to measure at the start of a lifting regime, because for some men it can seriously transform their shape and IF compounds this.
I know your belt had new notches - did your SV stay the same, or reduce ?

I did the 5:2 diet before Christmas, loved it, followed all your advice BigChoc and lost 12lbs. Then after Christmas I found it difficult to get back on track. Have found myself back to over eating and drinking too much. I know I am in trouble when I start hiding my treats. I have put on 8lbs of the weight I lost. So got back to 11st 10lbs.

I have had a word with myself. Thursday was my first FD, though have had two dinners out with friends on Friday and Saturday. Today is another FD. I was 11st 7lbs this morning, so hopefully it will shift fairly quickly.

I have come back to the thread for support, I really want to get down to 10st 7lbs by mid July.

Admiration for all the Saturday fasters - I think I'd be feeling a little bit too deprived if I did that!

Dh woke up yesterday morning and said he fancied a Chinese takeaway for tea. I went online and found a recipe for Kung po chicken - it was absolutely lovely and only 291 cals per portion. We had it with stir fried veg and boiled rice.

Dh said he preferred it to the takeaway version as it had 'proper' chicken rather than the unidentifiable grey meat our local takeaway uses.

Definitely a recipe I'll use again. And if I ditch the rice, I reckon it'll do nicely for a fast day tea!

So, yesterday ended up at a 20% under tdee day which is great for a Saturday - and means I have one non counting day left this week.

Hoping to start 5:2 tomorrow (I've name changed from cheeky)

Feeling really flat at the moment though energy wise. I know that's partly due to not eating the right foods. Might take a bit of time to get back to normal following the miscarriage.

Clash I found early on in 5:2 that weekends could exceed my weekly calorie deficit from FDs, hence my habit of a weekend FD.
Also, I have the time then for a totally pamper me-day: lie-in, then several hours at the gym with lifting, sprints, walking, plus iPad surfing & massage. My routine is then laundry and an early night.

Welcome back, blueberry Well done on your 1st FD and good luck today.
Losing 14 lb in 6-7 weeks is very challenging and needs your full focus, since you are not obese.

The first few lb should come off quite quickly, because it is usually water retained by excess carbs.
Concentrate on keeping NFDs sensible, i.e. within TDEE, because you need to retain the full FD deficit

Don't beat yourself up about regain - it is common without a clear maintenance plan, which must include vacations:

• No "indefinite" holiday from weight management - decide in advance how long holidays will last
• Put firmly in your calendar the first day after the holiday - this must be the day you return to 5:2, so you tackle holiday gain immediately, either an FD or an NFD within TDEE.
• As you approach goal, plan your longterm maintenance

Returning to your old WOL = returning to your old weight & waist - & health issues

Purple
Before trying to fast, I suggest you have a couple of weeks on healthy NFDs, eating 3-4 nutritious meals your body needs - protein, lots of veg, moderate complex carbs, fruit - with no snacks between.
Then see if you feel ready.