5:2 Thread number 63: 7 days without chocolate makes one weak ! On 5:2 you only diet 2 days a week.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Cheeky, I am so sorry.

Garden girl. I lost most of my baby weight in about 6 weeks but was feeding twins! However the last 6 lb didn't come off until I stopped feeding. Any dieting I tried to do whilst feeding made me feel really unwell.

Uneventful FD here which I guess is a good thing! Hope everyone else had a good day.

Kitchen closed padlocked at 680cals so a rubbish FD really bit I'm quite proud considering how crap I was over the last week

Hope everyone else is managing a good FD / nfd

That's a good deficit, need and you're back on track

Sorry to hear your news Cheeky. Rest up

Sorry cheeky take it easy

680 not rubbish do and yes I'm with you on that one - stresses I can't do anything about and difficult family stuff that I need to rise above and NOT let it all result in not looking after myself well - we're worth it !!

Successful FD here, just got to stay on track tomorrow. More protein may help BCF thanks so much for all your detailed advice. I am mindful about carb portions but maybe made them too small for several weeks then got cravings set off. Was on such a roll in April probablly overdidi it (4;3 B2Bs etc|)

Low GI definitely helps and managing stress without resorting to food is key I think. Last week just gave me a shock that old ways can reappear and still need working on.

MrD a run Yay!!

kiki hope you are doing OK

Like you mt I hate food waste but in past would eat too much so as not to waste food - another habit to break

Well done to everyone who's doing well

Thanks for the encouragement bcf, got a cracking headache so off to bed.

Yes clear we are, we must not let them derail us. We'll done on a successful FD

Night all

Thanks do early night here too

Night all!

Long time lurker! Fourth successful fast day since I started, feeling very smug and pleased with myself altogether!

I've lost 3.5 lbs since I started last Monday, so I'm pleased with that.

Welcome, JalapenoJane and well done on your SV. Good start

clear Smaller starchy carb portions often help on NFDs, to reduce hunger, but you generally need to increase fat to compensate.

A major reason I discourage people from 4:3 is that this often leads later to problems with hunger / overeating. So they end up losing more slowly overall than on regular 5:2

3 FDs per week are usually too stressful for most people, except as a short sharp burst to bust a plateau or prepare for a social event.
Stress is cumulative, your body suddenly reaches its limit and can take weeks before it is ready to lose again.
If you have a lot to lose, it is important to think longterm sustainability rather than be too impatient.

B2b suits a very few people very well, but not most folk.
I strongly recommend against combining b2b with 4:3 - far too stressful physically & psychologically.

So, just relax and do standard 5:2, with 2 non-consecutive FDs plus healthy NFDs around TDEE.
That'll get you back on track

FD here. Had such a bad week last week I need to smash this one! Signed off work for two weeks which will actually be the challenge as I have no distraction or routine!

Going to drop DS at nursery and then go for a swim I think, salad for lunch and I think stir fry for dinner.

Yes BCF will stick to regular 5:2. Realised my blip last week coincided with flax oil runnng out and that is a key daily source of 'good' fats for me.

Be gentle with yourself Mooey. Swim sounds nice. Plan a routine for each day to help keep on track, with lots of nurturing, enjoyable things, not just 'chores'!

Welcome jalapeno glad you've had a good start

Have a good day everyone

I managed to stay under 500 calories yesterday for the first time. The first week my fast days were around 6-700, but I counted them as successes anyway - there always has to be a learning curve!

Yesterday was easier, partly because I followed advice on the thread and had a Knorr stock pot in hot water at lunch. It allowed me to keep the rest of my calories for evening, so I got that "heavy" evening meal feeling.

Best of luck to all fasting today!

Morning everyone Good luck, Tuesday fasters

Well done on managing an 500 FD so quickly, Jalapeno and saving cals for a good supper.
You still achieved a good FD deficit last week.
Just keep the NFDs sensible and you should continue to lose bodyfat. Don't forget to measure waist & hips if you haven't already, so you can monitor inches loss.

Pamper yourself in your 2 weeks signed off, Mooey You have the time to prepare nourishing meals that your body needs, take some exercise and get plenty of rest - very important.
Your plan for today sounds lovely

clear I love Barleans Omega Swirl vegan flax or fish oils, lots of flavours, sweetened with Stevia.
Currently I have the Choclate Mint Essential Woman:

BigChoc is the flavour strong, could you use it to flavour things? I put ground flaxseed in smoothies but the texture is a bit lumpy (ancient blender). If I could put the oil in instead and also flavour by banana smoothies that would be a double win.

I add it to smoothies, also to supply the fat when I make 45 minute delic healthy ice cream in my much beloved Cuisinart machine

On NFDs, a tbsp makes a qwik 70-cal dessert, that is sufficiently intense that I don't need anything else.

Brilliant, might give it a try! Thanks

Morning all

Tuesday FD for me, I've got a haircut booked at lunchtime so will go straight through and have an earlier dinner (sainsburys bgty chicken tikka meal - 400 cals with some extra veg) and then a light snack before bed, piece of cheese, sliced cucumber and carrot probably.

Cheeky sorry to hear your news, rest up and look after yourself xx

Welcome Jalepeno - sounds like you're in the swing already, well done!

Mooey - take these 2 weeks to look after yourself, get plenty of rest and take time for you.

clear and doi - hope you're looking after yourselves.

morning everyone and welcome jalepeno
yes i am thanks mrd - feeling SO much better this morning after FD yesterday, less tired, less bloated and less bluergh :)

So today's NFD is the challenge, looking to go through to lunch until i break fast with a big chicken and avocado salad.

Sun shining here so going to bath my smelly old dog at lunch and then take him for a walk to dry off hope everyone has a good day

As a vegan, I'm very conscious of trace elements as well as Omega 3, etc.

I have a daily bowl of ground flaxseeds+sesame/sunflower/pumpkin seeds with flaked almonds, 2 stewed dried apricots and two prunes. I make it into a sort of porridge by adding fruit juice - made from first stewing, then soaking the fruit in water. To all this I've now added 2 dsps of olive oil as a nod to a Mediterranean diet.

Flaxseeds are either £1.62 or £1.25/500g in my local HFSs - or up to £5/500g in H&B!

As an aside, I've always avoided H&B because of their prices, but I was told yesterday that they are owned by Monsanto!

I'll never set foot in there again!

H&B are owned by Monsanto?!

Thanks for the info. I won't be visiting either. It's a pity because I used to get lots of vegan foods there, but with vegsnism becoming more mainstream you can pick up great stuff in Aldi and Lidl. They'll be easy to avoid.

Obviously I mean H&B are easy to avoid. Monsanto are increasingly harder to dodge.

Afternoon all.

I've been watching but not posted for a few weeks.
I've been spending the time getting nfd under control as not lost any lbs for weeks. And it's still the same - advice please☺
Tdee- of 1690 5ft7 & 49. Sticking to 1400 on nfd 2 fd of 600, yesterday was cauliflower soup & an omelette with salad.
4x exercise of 1- 11/2 hours cardio & weights.
Wine consumption of 3 x 175mls fri & sat. Not into sweet stuff.
Take thyroixin (125mcg) and stuck between 11-12 & 12-2.?????????

Annie It may be that your thyroixin dose needs to be increased - have you had tests in the last 6 months ?
Maybe when you lost your earlier weight that affected your thyroid function.
With any thyroid issues, it can be a very slow & complicated process to lose weight.

Some thoughts ....

• Your theoretical TDEE is 1700 sedentary, but real TDEE with thyroid issues may be different. You may simply lose at a much slower rate than most folk, but even 1 lb every 2-3 weeks is progress.

Intake

• How many weeks have you been on the 2 x 600 FDs and 5 x 1400 NFDs ?
• Do you mfp daily, or do you have an indulgent weekend that may be quite a bit over ?
• I (& Mosely) recommend keeping within the recommended 2 units on NFDs, so cut down the 3 glasses to 1 each day, say Fri, Sat & Sun. Alcohol stops fat-burning for hours until your liver has processed all the toxic byproducts.
• How many portions of fruit do you have per day ? Mosely recommends no more than 2 and preferably the lower sugar fruits like berries, apples, pears, not bananas, mangos, pineapple etc
• Cut out fruit juice and dried fruit including raisins. Also cut out sugary breakfast cereals.
• What is your waist / height ratio ? Are you more an apple or a pear shape ? Apples do better low carbing

Exercise

• For some people on a diet, the stress of long medium intensity cardio sessions can raise cortisol and cause the body to hang onto fat.
• What kind of cardio are you doing ? I recommend swapping any steady cardio for shorter HIIT sessions, e.g swap running for sprint intervals and no more than 20 mins run, swap cycling for HIIT spin, swap elliptical machine for pump / kettles / Zumba / TaeBo class
• Also, no more than 3 times per week for cardio and for no longer than 1 hr total
• I'd avoid the treadmill and the ellipical machines completely, except for a 15 min cooldown walk on the treadmill after weightlifting
• Add the the Fat Blasts (another Mosely idea) listed in the OP on our 5:2 / IF ExerciseThread3. These Blasts just take 5 mins on say 3-4 days per week, but they can help resolve metabolic issues.

Sleep

• Lack of sleep increases cortisol and leads to bodyfat retention or even increase. Plan your days to get your solid 8 hrs daily.