5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning everyone and good luck to any Wednesday fasters
< whispers to sleeping Kiki : Your dinner tonight sounds absolutely delic >

Newbie here. One fast done. Not too bad. Trying to reign in my eating on NFD days which I know I'm going to find harder but I have weight to lose.

How do we feel about sugar free drinks on a FD ? I want to wean myself off these ultimately as well, and I'm drinking lots more than I used to, but should I cold turkey ?

Welcome, saythat and well done on your 1st FD

I recommend that you concentrate first on getting used to fasting and eating within TDEE on NFDs.
On 5:2, you need to drink lots of water, which may automatically cut down on fizz.
However, many 5:2ers find it useful to have a diet fizz instead of booze or a pudding.

Replacing diet fizz by water is great, but not replacing it by added sugar fizz - too much sugar has been proven to increase certain health risks, whereas the only scientifically proven disadvantage of sweeteners for the general population is that it can cause sweet cravings in some folk - well, added sugar can increase cravings in everyone.

Avoid fruit juice too, because the sugar is concentrated in far greater amounts than when you eat a portion of fruit. Most veg juice is fine, much lower sugar & calories.

Another fast day and I'm just not hungry! Have thought more about food in the last 3 days than I have in the last 3 years - which is probably why I'm overweight to be honest.

Thanks for your support everyone and esp BCF.

Morning all

Am having a good week, I am sure of it I'm positive its down to the lovely spring weather here - sunny and warm and evenings are spent in the garden.

NFD for me, I might do my combat workout DVD tonight, not done it in a while and something is making me want to go for it - so think I will, would do it at lunchtime actually except I have a sports massage booked (preventative ready for moonwalk... one a month since I started training).

Thursday will be next FD and then we shall see what Friday will bring excited as I already know I've lost just want to know how much by

zeek - I lost 3lb a week for the first 2 stone without even really trying, then had a few weeks plateau, then dropped to 2lb for a while. I'm now 3.5 stone down in 7 months, including 2 weeks off at Christmas, a week over my birthday and a week at Easter. I always lose better when I remember to eat well on NFDs and drink PLENTY of water, at least 2 litres every day, more on a FD generally. I'm hoping to reach at least 5 stone lost before my summer holidays in August, however I've worked out that if I lose 2lb a week I might make 6 stone, if I do - that will mean I've gone from massively morbidly obese (BMI 42) to just short of a healthy BMI in under a year - I'd really like to reach BMI 25 before that year is up - but for me this is a lifestyle change, I don't really care when I reach a healthy weight, as long as I do! And I'm enjoying the health benefits from fasting already too.

Fantastic progress, MrD Good to see how sustainable 5:2 is for you and that you have made it fit into your normal life. You lost very quickly, but safely. Also gave your skin a chance to retain elasticity.
So motivating for newbies starting from high BMI - in a few months you too can be posting great SVs and NSVs.

Another NFD for me today before my second FD tomorrow.

I had 2,600 calories yesterday just a touch over my TDEE as I went out for dinner and wine.

I reckon I'll come in at about 1,500 today.

I'm hoping I can do as well as MrsD! What a wonderful achievement

Hello all - distracting myself on a FD with MN should really be working

didIreallysaythat - totally depends on your taste but I find the Aldi Lemon flavoured Water a godsend on FD's - 2 cals per bottle and tastes pretty much like the pricey Volvic et al versions.

Today's challenge for me is to avoid the ice-cream stocked freezer on this lovely sunny day.

Good luck to all FD'ers

Nfd here after b2b FD. Had Greek yoghurt, granola & fresh fruit for breakfast which was a lovely treat as I don't eat cereal et al often. Im still stuffed now so I'll power through until roast chicken, sweet potato and salad for tea.

Some fabulous sv recently... mrd you have done fantastically, well done!!

MrD that is truly inspiring to see it written down and really shows how worth the "marathon not a sprint" mentality is - serious congrats for sticking with it so well over holidays too

You've also reminded me I really need to start trying to eat up to my TDEE better on NFD. I'm going to change my settings on MFP to be myTDEE rather than than the automatic "eat this much to loose weight" amount

Wow MrsD, just wow!

NFD here and not going brilliantly, made chocolate and banana bread with the kids as had ripe bananas but it is too tempting and delicious so I have had more than I should.

My food today (NFD) is:

100g porridge made with hot water with a banana chopped up and pumpkin seeds - delish. Don't usually have breakfast but really fancied it today, it was so filling and lovely.

Avocado and half a big beef tomato on 4 big lettuce leaves with Worcestershire sauce, and two poached eggs, then a homemade (by DS1) sultana scone.

Tonight will be prawn stir fry made with a tin of chopped tomatoes, then a 0% greek yoghurt with blueberries.

1460 calories!!!!

Hi all having a good week here, got a very significant personal SV milestone looming on the horizon, so am feeling very positive and in the zone with healthy NFDs and loads of water.

My NFD mantra of ' I've recently eaten a nourishing meal and will be having another one soon' is really working - zero snacking- and weight is coming off really easily at the moment

bimble well done and great news you're feeling loads more energy!

kiki your food sounds so tasty!

zee well done !
did well done on first FD!

MrD you're in the zone and a great inspiration to me. Like you I see this as a permanent lifestyle change, it's gonna take me quite a few more months to get back to a healthy BMI but with 5:2 I know I can do it now.

For any newbies with lots to lose get the NFD eating sorted and no snacks and lots of water and you'll do fine!

Iam yum !

I am not even doing 16:8 today cos I was so hungry when I woke up - I don't normally do breakfast but realised I won't have time to grab lunch so I'm following your lead clearskies and will just not snack today - late breakfast at 9:45am, I'll push through to a late lunch/tea style situation around 4:30pm then it will be dinner at 8pm

Hopefully, if I can resist the wine and the ice cream should finish today at 515! Got chicken in the oven and having butter beans and spinach with it. It's good to be on here for the support and also to read your stories. I was strangely proud of myself that I managed to avoid the chocolate biscuits at a work meeting earlier, though did have milk in a cup of tea - ha, need to add that to the mfp diary!!

Thanks for the advice on diet drinks and water. Next newbie question. Busy day so just a banana for lunch, and as a result I'm at 400kcal. I reckon I can squeeze in supper for 150 so should I make today my next FD (NFD yesterday). I was thinking it would be tomorrow - off to France on Friday with DH without kids for the first time in 5 years so no way I'm not going to eat sensibly over the weekend. So... Better to FD just before a larger meal day or two, or does it make no difference.

Bugger, I meant 565! Not quite so impressive

saythat Yes, it would be useful to have an FD today or tomorrow, before your weekend in France
Don't stress about it though; you could have a mini-FD (sub-1000 cals) instead

Yes, do reset mfp to TDEE for NFDs, Kiki Best to make your WOE sustainable & comfy, no need for an additional weekly deficit from the NFDs.
If you eat 2-4 meals on FDs, no snacks, it sounds like you'll be within TDEE fairly easily.

Well done on the No Snacking NSV, clear You are in the fasting zone

And now have finished off the yoghurt (fat free onken stuff) and gone up to 600. That's the second FD that I've gone over and also yesterday (admittedly by 1 cal). I realise that it's going to take a bit of time, but how can i lose weight if i keep going over? And is 600 instead of 500 really bad? And could I make up for it by eating 100 less over the weekend?

Sorry for all the posts and questions - new to this and feeling a bit of a failure already.

Food help please, what am I missing from this. Nfd today & could eat the world,
Breakfast 10.30am (after gym))
Poached egg with mushrooms & tomatoes 45g granary bread with a teaspoon of guacamole.
Dinner, 4 pm.
80g hallumi, 100g grilled chicken with 150g ranch style salad cherry tomatoes.
I've now eaten a bag of crisps, a slice of bread & an edam slice.
Should it be more veg, proteins or what???
Comes in at about 1300 on a 1700 Cal tdee-.x

Hi all. NFD day for me today. My TDEE is 1500. Do I need to eat this much on every NFD? Feels a bit like I'm eating for the sake of it.

I have been managing to stick to 500 or less on fast days.

What would be a healthy NFD limit?

Hi zeezeek

600 cals is counted as a successful FD - especially as you're just starting out. It's all a learning curve!

Ignore that extra 100. For your NFDs, you want to aim 3 or 4 of them to be 100 or 200 under your TDEE to allow for some leeway at the weekend.

Good luck!

Just chill, Zeek You are doing well as a newbie to manage around 600. Most people take 2-3 weeks to get down to 500; some take longer.
You have nearly the full deficit so you should lose weight easily, if you keep your NFDs sensible, around TDEE. No need to compensate just for a measly 100 cals. Just move on and don't worry.

Annie Your food looks ok, unless those crisps were a monster size. Adding some veg to the bread & edam might have helped a bit.
You just need another protein & veg meal to bring you around TDEE - on a training day it's natural to be hungry.
Steady state medium intensity exercise - typically running, swimming, elliptical trainer - can really increase hunger, whereas HIIT or resistance training (lifting, pump, Pilates) tends to reduce it for hours.

Sissy Don't eat if you are not hungry - some days you'll eat under TDEE; some days over, especially social events.
Drink lots of water aim for 2 litres if possible, since you are getting less moisture from food.

Some folk find when they start fasting that they switch so well to burning fat for fuel that their appetite drops off for a couple of weeks. That's fine, make the most of this period, but don't force yourself under TDEE.

You sound like one of the lucky folk who don't need to mfp on NFDs, just on FDs
After 2 weeks, let's review your weight loss and any inches loss, also how you feel.