5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

hi all

gosh the thread moves so quickly and because I'm 8hours behind you it takes ages for me to catch up!

need good for you - and I have to say it really helps me (particularly as a majoritive-vegan) to look at my plate and see the rainbow compared to NFD style meals of beige and brown!

well done persis that's great news - particularly maintaining for a decent stretch, sounds like you've found your groove and absolutely shows how this is a WOE not just a diet

I completely agree with BCF that newbies and returners should MFP for a while to understand (re-understand) calorie content - I'm doing it fairly religiously to remind myself

I hadn't decided on M or T FD this week, yesterday ended up clocking in at 548 kcals at 6pm so decided that would do - then went to an event where all the food was non-vegan BUT I did have 1.5beers so annoyingly that pushed me up to 744 and therefore not a proper FD, so doing a proper 500kcal day today (calculated and put my food aside and ready and have a really busy day ahead so should be manageable) so I suppose a weird version of b2b. Then fasting Thursday - my parents arrive on Friday for a 2 week visit but they do 5:2 as well so we can keep going altogether.

Does anyone have any suggestion for family meals I can do on Thursday that isn't a curry, limits veg (we're working on DD's fussiness, and I know I can add veg to mine), pref vegan....I'm in a rut...tonight I'm doing red pepper, tomato and red lentil soup which I have on top of a mound of spinach and the DC have with pasta. They've had pasta every day this week though

Checking in on my b2b fast...it's gone well surprisingly. 2 cups of tea plus lots of water & now I'm eating salmon and salad. Got a mound of ironing to get through tonight so that will stop any snacking.

Hold on Tuesday fasters...nearly there!!

Ugh it's only 9:30am here!

Sorry kiki

How are all the fasters doing ?
Not long until supper (in the uk, sorry Kiki !)

Most folk can manage the FDs eventually (some just need a few more weeks, no rush ).
After this, many find it is the NFDs that are the problem, because they have lost sight of the portion size their body needs, often not realised how all those snacks add up.
If this is you, then mfp is a useful training tool / reality check.

5:2 NFDs are an opportunity to train yourself into permanent, healthier habits:
mindful eating, more veg, less junk, sensible portions, no snacks between meals, a short daily walk, going to bed early enough for a full night's sleep (maybe not those with small DC !)

Hi, have read this thread and thought I'd join you. I started 5:2 yesterday after about a year of procrastination and need to lose about 5 stone I guess - don't know for certain because I don't own a pair of scales and would be too frightened to use them at the moment anyway. I also struggle with having to weigh everything whilst on a diet. I say it's because I'm too busy, but the truth is, I'm too lazy. Have started using mfp and using packets etc to gauge weight. Despite a science degree and career I'm the least logical and organised person ever when it comes to diet and food.

I did my first FD yesterday - lots of black coffee and about 600 cals, then today I woke up late, wasn't hungry at first, then fancied a bacon sandwich and had one, even though I wasn't actually starving. It got worse from there, ended up eating the whole of a 100g bar of chocolate (when I don't normally even crave chocolate) and 2 glasses of white wine (red gives me a migraine - but then, so does chocolate lol). So now feeling a failure. I did, however, eat fairly healthy meals and have come in at about 1650 cals (mfp suggested 1700). But hell. Chocolate and wine.....

Got another FD tomorrow....and I'm at home so planning a field mushroom with couple slices of nimble bread and a bit of low fat cream cheese, spinach and Spanish egg for lunch and more spinach with butter beans and chicken for dinner. I don't generally get sweet cravings, so don't know where the big bar of chocolate came from today and also felt really tired - though I am working rather intensely on a grant application, but not finding it stressful or anything. Slept well last night.

I'm struggling a bit to find time to exercise at the moment - I can't face the gym as I feel too fat and am out at meetings a lot so DH is walking the dogs. I tend to take them out, and thus have exercise, about 4 times a week. I know this isn't good enough!

Oh my it has been hard today. A combination of too many carbs yesterday, far too little sleep and an active, hot day I think. Nearly fainted in waitrose (prob would have been OK as so far as I can tell all waitroses are heaving with MNers!). It is done, and I am off to bed with a new book on 650 cal.

Evening all

Kitchen just closed on 418 cals! Had a great FD, loads of water and NSV coming up - another new veg introduced to my diet, mushrooms were had and enjoyed!

Persis - that sounds a bit rubbish! Hope your feeling better soon!!

Zeek - try not to be too hard on yourself, a good first FD and a TDEE NFD are a blinking good start, you'll make better choices as you get used to it I'm sure!

Well done bugsy, nearly there!

doi - well done on resisting!!

Kitchen closed here at 518 cals 😁 very happy with that. Well done persis on getting through with a low cal, enjoy your early night.

Welcome zee go back and read all the info bigchoc has at the start of the thread, she is a wealth of knowledge. I know you say you are not organised but planning in advance on mfp really will help. Good luck.
Hang in there kiki 😀

Have discovered mfp and it's helped me to get a grip mad actually think about how much I'm eating. I aspire to being someone who does do all the weighing of ingredients....but fear I have a way to go yet. I do have a good sense of what is, say 10g though, from years of baking and being in a lab, so don't think I'm completely way out with measurements.

But do need to make sure Thursday isn't the disaster today has been. Out at a meeting, then coffee with a friend.....

Evening all (morning kiki)
Kitchen closed here at 442 cals. Ive strangely really enjoyed fasting today and i bloomin well loved my dinner.
Hang in there zee there are a few of us newbies that are being helped and encouraged by everyone else you can do this and if not today then try again tomorrow!!!
Well done fellow Tuesday Fasters...home stretch now!!!

Fellow fasters, before everyone turns in for the night, has anyone had experience with 20:4 on a daily basis?

Usually I do 4:3 but am starting to trip over the old stumbling blocks of fasting, then overeating on my regular days. I'm mentally pretty solid and do well fasting throughout the day but would like to hear from anyone who has tried the 20:4 and how they found it?

I would probably fast until I get home from work with the kids at 5.30pm and then have a snack immediately and then eat dinner at 7.30pm (ish) - no calorie restriction though.

Any thoughts gratefully received. I'm guessing I will reap the general fasting health benefits but wondering if 20:4 on a daily basis is too much to expect from myself?

Welcome zee and well done for a good first FD - took me a good few weeks to get used to FDs and at first I 'd get really hungry the next day and overeat but have got used to how it feels now and keep an eye on my portion sizes...so hang in there and use all the info and support you can get here. For Ist meal post FD extra protein seems to help (rather than lots of carbs).

How lovely to have parents doing 5:2 as well kiki

Take it easy persis, are you drinking enough water?

well done do MrD and mrsf. I'm loving my Fds too and my B2Bs,. Got to nail the next 2 NFDs now. No snacking is my focus. Have really got used to it now and tell myself I'll be having a meal again soon and it's fine to feel a little bit hungry as a meal approaches.

MrD yay to mushrooms NSV, what's next?!

Night all (except kik maybe)

Hi everyone! I've been bimbling along with the fasting though last week wasn't great - only two fasts, rest of the week included two nights of drinking and one Chinese takeaway, and no more exercise dvd, with the result that I just didn't measure myself this Sunday! In fairness it was a busy week and both nights drinking were out with work.

I did a fast day yesterday and have closed the kitchen today at 510 so have done a back to back this week to get back on track.

Alas with flying out to hols on Sunday I think the strappy bikini is not going to look as I had hoped two and a bit weeks ago, but my clothes certainly fit better than they did.

I might try to get another back to back in Thursday and Friday - we'll see. Either way, I really, really need to do my kettle bell video tomorrow.

FD for me today and it's gone really well.

No breakfast. Had a Pilates class in the morning, then came home and did a Shred. Delicious roast teriyaki aubergine with zingy Asian salad for lunch, then monkfish with pancetta on a bed of steamed veg for dinner. Clocking in at 499 cals and kitchen is closed.

Am feeling really happy with how it's going, haven't been feeling hungry, haven't felt like snacks or sweet things and have been feeling full of energy. Need to try to get more sleep though.

Next FD planned for Thursday. But going to continue with 16:8 and aiming for below-TDEE on NFD's. Visiting a friend at the weekend, which will be full of food and wine, so I'm saving some calories for that!

Well done to all the other successful Tuesday FD'ers!

just sitting down to lunch - thanks for thinking of me everyone! odds and sods miso soup (various veg that needed using up)...I was so hungry though I wolfed it down and now have indigestion

stroke I'd be careful with that tight a restriction if you mean to do that on NFD - there's a high chance you won't get enough calories in

Thanks Kiki, yes that was what I was concerned about I think, not getting enough in.

I think I will experiment with it the next couple of days and see how I find it, perhaps alternating 20:4 and 16:8 to make sure I get more calories in on my 16:8 days, especially if I'm working out on those days.

I'm 2 hours ahead of you Kiki, so still at work here. Boredom ensues...

Evening everyone
Not a great day today, I didn't eat to TDEE yesterday so woke up hungry. By 11am I decided not to bother with a fast day today and had cereal bars, then a biscuit. Then got really busy at work and it was 2pm before I had time for a break, by which point I wasn't hungry anymore so just had fruit and water. Figured I could revive the fast, so had an omelette for tea (DH was cooking a meal I don't like, which helped!). But I'm so hungry I can't get to sleep, I'm at 550 cals. If I have a small bowl of cereal, that'll take me to about 700 which is still a decent deficit, does that sound ok? It's not ideal but I didn't plan well at all.

drop could you have a milky tea to out so,etching in your stomach? Or have a carrot or something? I find cereal a bit nothing-y and a fair few calories that don't stop hunger but that might just be me.

If you do go for the cereal, 700 is still a great deficit

Put something*

FurryWall That's why I recommend most people do 5:2, reserving 4:3 or ADF (Alternate Day Fasting) for plateau-busting:
Either 4:3 or ADF, if done properly & with self-control, theoretically speeds up weight loss.
However, if you choose them to avoid getting NFDs under control, then you are just postponing the problems: easy to slip into a cycle of fasting / bingeing, which is not healthy and doesn't lose much weight.

Are you considering daily 20:4, without FDs ? I'd suggest instead "Fast 5" or 19:5, which at least a few thousand people do regularly - this is a Ted Talk by the inventor, Dr Bert Herring:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xHQbg4xH9lw

That would maximise any health benefits of fasting. You might even want to combIne it with 1-2 normal NFDs each week.
However, do NOT combine it with FDs, because that would probably place too much stress on your system and be unhealthy.

Welcome, Zeek That's another step forward, joining us on this main 5:2 thread

Well done on a good 1st FD and NFD; that's a good start.
Give yourself a pat on the back - and no more criticising yourself.
Walking the dogs a few times a week is enough exercise to help your health. When you feel ready, I can suggest ways to ramp up exercise, but best to get used to fasting first and not try changing everything all at once.

Remember on the other thread, Blossom & I recommended 5:2 rather than fasting every other day. With 5 stone extra, you should lose quite quickly on ordinary 5:2. Best not to push yourself too hard - that weight took years to gain, so allow yourself several months to lose it safely.
Also allow time for your skin to retain its elasticity.

Several folk have started 5:2 with BMI 40+ and lost a lot of weight: Vibrantella with 5 stone, MrDarcy with 50 lb - she lost 2-3 lb weekly for quite a while on regular 5:2.

Drop cereal is not a good choice, too high GI - usually sugary and the milk raises GI too.
Much better to have a small amount of protein & fat, e.g.

• boiled egg / scrambled egg / veg omelette OR
• raw veg & hummus / tsatziki / taramasalata
• a piece of cheese and a tomato

Great to hear how easily you are maintaining on 5:2, Persis That's a good system with 2 x 700 FDs - many maintainers prefer 2 relaxed FDs to 6:1

Well done clear, need, MrD, Jengles, Summer, MrsMental, Panda, Bimble and all the other Tuesday fasters.
Keep going, Kiki You'll finish while we're all snoring in the uk

FD tips for newbies:

• Plan and calorie count all your FD food the day before
• Have 1 or more meals, no snacks between meals.
• Start the FD with a glass of water & keep drinking. Aim for 2litres
• NO alcohol or junk on FDs, but coffee & tea are fine; diet fizz is ok if it helps you.
• Chant "I can have it tomorrow"

Thanks bcf. I didn't manage the online shop this weekend so food choice is limited, hence the lack of planning! I'm vegetarian so protein options aren't great, but I know I can do better when I've thought about it in advance.

Onwards and upwards, will plan better for later in the week.

kitchen finally closed at 482kcals - makes up for that 1.5 beers last night!

Looking forward to a NFD tomorrow, we have friends coming over for dinner and I'm doing fig and olive tapenade crostini, whole roasted cauliflower, wheatberry and brussell sprout and pomegranate salad with lemon tahini dressing, blistered shishito peppers, then vegan key lime pie for desert and I can't bloody wait.

One of them is a professional sommelier so I imagine a nice bottle of plonk will be coming our way - have planned a v light miso soup for lunch so I can eat without worry at dinnertime