5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

In haste here will catch up on all the news later but just had to post my SV, another 2 1/2 lb down and that takes me to a total of 2 and 1/2 stone lost since Jan - Yayyyy!!!

Have a great day everyone - a successful FD or a no snacking NFD! [smile.

5:2 rocks!!

Morning all and good luck to the Thursday fasters

Congrats on your SV, clear < joins Jaunty Jig around the kitchen >
You also have a lifestyle / positive outlook NSV - your head is in the right place and your body is following.

Stay strong, need You have done so well. Just think longterm; we have all had blips, but it is what happens over several weeks that matters.
It is fine at very tough times to just use 5:2 to avoid weight gain / regain until the world gets off your throat

summer A low TDEE is tougher on any WOE, but some 5:2 maintainers have reached goal and stayed there with sedentary TDEE of 1300 - 1500

There are tactics that help. The main one is to examine the type of food you eat and when you eat, not just how much.
E.g if you are insulin resistant (usually apple shape) you'll need to lower your carbs.
Snacks are for 4000 TDEE male weightlifters; booze above safe limits doesn't suit anyone.
Maybe you could post a typical NFD where you went over and we can suggest tweaks.

chocwoc If you are already setting your exercise level in TDEE, do NOT add any more back via gadgets, or you will be adding back twice - some folk do this by mistake and wonder why exercise stops loss.

On NFDs, aim for 2080 on at least one day; the other NFDs aim anywhere between sedentary TDEE and 2080, to speed up loss;or just average 2000 over all NFDs.
This maintains or even slightly increases the FD deficit over the week.
On FDs, keep around 500, however much you exercise. Only BFers or folk with v high TDEE have extra cals here

mfp is great for logging calories, but can be confusing wrt what total to aim for, because 5:2 is not a daily calorie restriction.
Can any mfp experts say if they adjust it to be more helpful ?

Hi everyone, have missed loads!! Well done clear!!!! And great fasting to everyone!!

Presentation went really well but eating went a bit haywire and far too much champagne but I'm planning a healthy NFD today then depending how I feel will fast Friday or Saturday. I think a FD with a hangover might be a bit challenging!!!

everyone!!

thanks BCF I will stay strong, I DO NOT want to undo my hard work so far its just that I know that I eat the wrong stuff when stressed and I'm going to be stressed to the max over the next 6 weeks - this will be a good test hopefully

Wow well done clear what a fantastic SV you must feel over the moon

Glugging water like there's no tomorrow here, I will complete my FD today

Morning all

FD here a and I'm glugging away!

Clear ace SV - well done!

Persis , well done on the presentation!

Re MFP - I adjust my cals to show my TDEE (rounded down a little to the nearest 100) , it makes sense to me. If you have premium you can change depending on the day so you could mark your 500 days, but I don't bother with that I just don't hit 'complete' on those days or MFP freaks out and tells me I'm a bad girl

need

Thanks bcf, that's really helpful.

I hadn't tweaked mfp, just asked for it to calculate what I need to lose two pounds a week.

A 'cheat' day at 2,600sounds great though!

I think my metabolism is a bit screwed to be honest. I genuinely don't think I eat enough to maintain the weight that I am/have been. I do wonder if years of dieting (including vlcd with milkshakes only) have messed with my body's ability to lose weight like anyone else

Morning

Well done Clear 2 1/2 stone in less than 4 months is amazing, really inspiring to me whose got a long way to go!

Persis the presentation is done - go you! Must've been hard to get your work brain back what with still being on mat leave and all that. Well done!

NFD today, goal for today is to concentrate on drinking more water, can do it with ease on FD but just seem to forget on NFDs

Well done clear.

Thanks bigchoc. S9mething of a typical NFD

Breakfast

Raisin almond and hazelnut granola, 2 slices of toast with peanut butter - 382 calories

Lunch

Cappaletti proscuito with parmasan. Rachels divine rice pudding - 565 cals

Dinner

Lemon chicken woth sautee baby new potatoes (in oven) and salad with walnuts pancetta blue cheese balsamic vinegar and olive oil. - 600 cals

Snacks

Pink lady apple, chunk of cheddar cheese. One measure of baileys.(not altogether i might add - well the cheese and apple were together) - 290 cals

Total circa 1830

Admittedly if i removed the rice puddi g snd baileys id be within total. But that is what i find miserable. I want to have nice things, which is simply not conducive to a diet 😕.

I am also mist certainlya pair shape rather than an apple. 11 inch difference waist to hips.

Another hungry faster here but just have to remind myself nothing bad will happen because I am skipping two meals.

I will have to remind myself not to be grumpy. Back when I first did 5:2 I made somebody cry at work on one of my first fast days so I have to be careful

Hi all. 5:2 maintainer here, still bobbing around 8 8 - 8 10, having lost about 10 pounds very quickly by doing 5:2 last year. I love this WOE and am maintaining doing 6:1 at the moment.

Waves to BigChoc, MrD etc. Hope you are all well.

Sun is shining!

Yet another hungry faster here clocking in Rough few days as have had to give the baby eye drops every 2 h inc through the night, but managed not to fall into the the trap of eating junk during the day even though was shattered. I'm counting that as an NSV!

bring I also have a low TDEE, as amshort (5' 3") and sedentary- my TDEE is around 1550ish. I've found what helps me is to reduce my carbs and up my protein. At dinner I often have no or very few starchy carbs (pasta, rice, potatoes, bread) and instead have massive portions of veg. I still feel I'm eating well and I still fit in treats, but as smaller portions.

Yesterday's NFD, as an example:

Breakfast:
Latte made with semi-skimmed milk
2 crumpets with Lurpak lighter spread and 2 poached eggs
Approx 510 cals

Lunch:
Parsnip and ginger soup
2 rice cakes with a philadelphia lighter snack pot
2 Lindor (am still making my way through the Easter chocolate!!)
Approx 450 cals

Dinner:
Sausage and bean casserole
Large portion of spring greens
Approx 530 cals.

Total for the day: ~1490 cals

I agree about wanting to keep some treats in there. I just try to remind myself that I can have it tomorrow, or that I don't have to eat the entire Easter egg at once(!) It's taken a couple of weeks to get into good habits but I'm finding it easier now.

Hey blossom

Nice to see you maintaining away!

I'm still just on the water this morning. Having my main meal at lunchtime today as its clubs night for the DC. So some fajita chicken and veg etc then will have soup once they're in bed later.

2nd FD here. Going well so far, ive even managed to make a bolognese for dinner without tasting it!! Ill be measuring it and having it with corgette noodles for dinner...i cant wait!!
The hunger isnt as bad as i thoughtit would be abd i must say my energy level appears to be improved even after a few days...no more sugar highs here.

Hoping all the Thursday Fasters make it!!!

thanks persis I am feeling determined after reading these threads and getting motivation from those that have lost the weight and are happily maintaining, well done blossom

bring I'm the same, so if I factor in treats by saving calories on 2 nfds to have at weekend I know that this will feel less like a diet and more like a WOL which is what I crave. Good luck

lucked that made me smile in sympathy - I tend to get quite hangry on FD days

Just trying to catch up! Sorry if I miss anyone. Some great victories!

Clear skies that's amazing well done and keep it up!

Blossom can I ask how quickly you lost your weight? I'm 10 stone and want down to under 9. 8.5 would be amazing!

FD here and struggling. Been sleeping well and also decent time last couple nights which was an improvement but today I have woken up really tired. I struggled to get out of bed and put it off for 20mins which isn't like me at all. Can hear my stomach grumbling. Had an ultrameal this morning and having another now so hopefully that'll get me through the afternoon. Planning to go home and nap!

< waves to blossom > Great to hear how easily you are maintaining.

That's a good NFD menu you shared, Jengles
And well done on the Resisting Junk NSV - that's an important step, learning not to Comfort Junk.
Sounds like you are settling in fine, MrsMental Good luck on your 2nd FD

Summer You'd probably feel fuller if you moved those snacks to become your pud after a meal.
I agree, you need to lower the GI of your meals. Suggestions:

• Raisins and all dried fruit are very sugary, so you'll feel hungry sooner. Swap to berries.
• Make that toast wholegrain, more fibre, more filling
• Yes, increase veg portions
• Starchy carbs - bread, rice, potato, pasta etc - should all together be no bigger than your fist in any meal.
• Move to more complex carbs: beans, lentils, peas, quinoa, brown rice, wholegrain bread. They are more filling and release energy over a longer period.

Treats
You see from Jengles list that she has a sensible balance of treats.
imo, you have too many treats for a single day at your TDEE. A particular problem is that rice pud and bailey's are both sugary / carby. So they will spike blood sugar, make you humgry soon and will tend to add fat around the waist.

A "treat" is something exceptional, not for every meal or even every day.

As a guide:

• During the weight loss period, NFD treats can be about 10% of TDEE
• During maintenance they can be up to 20% TDEE 2 methods:
• Either have a small treat every NFD, so about 150 cals per NFD for you.
• Or have treats only on weekend NFDs, so 750 cals split over 2 days.
• Do NOT have both

Alcohol Types
Can you switch from Bailey's to say red wine, even spirits:

• a very small jigger of 1.5 fl oz has 150 cals, but 9g sugar, really high
• a standard - not large - glass of 175 ml also has about 150 cals, but only 1-5 g sugar
• a small shot - 35 ml - whisky / gin / vodka is about 75 cals and has NO sugar. So 2 shots for your 150 cals

Wow clear, that's amazing...well done you!!

Persis, well done on the presentation!!

Nfd going well here.

Hope the Thursday fasters are doing well!!!

Aww, thank you bcf! good thing I shared that one and not Friday's TDEE-busting menu, which featured fish and chips, Victoria sponge cake and a G&T

Sorry clear, I somehow missed your post! That's a fantastic achievement, congratulations!

Thanks for the advice/ideas bigchoc jengles and doineed. I shall try and be good in the week and restrained on the weekend. But i am absolutely ravenous between lunch at 12.30/1 and dinner at 8.30 and near impossible to bring dinner forwards hence the snack.

Great encouraging story blossom one day i might actually make it to maintenance.

On a positive note FD is going well.

Congrats clear that's wonderful news!
Well done on the presentation persis
I'm fasting today and I fear it might be a struggle so I'm with you cheering you on need - although you're 8hoirs ahead of me so hopefully your day is pretty much over soon enough!

I've struggled mentally this week, it's taken an iron will to stick to 16:8 but I can and will do it, already logged all my calories, packed my lunch and my dinner is ready to pop in the microwave as soon as I get home. I'm stupidly tired so an early night will do me good too

Good luck the rest of today's fasters!

Thanks kiki we can get through it. Remember the mantra we can have it tomorrow 😁 stay strong

I need suggestions for something quick and simple for 200 calories. So far I've had two ultrameal shakes.

Well done on your presentation, Persis We knew you'd ace it

Stay strong through the stress, need We're all rooting for you.

Summer If you reduce the treats to the suggested 10% you should be reasonably around TDEE.

I suggest also that you replace your afternoon "snack" with a more filling low carb mini meal of say 150 cals
e.g. 2 scrambled eggs with a small handful of chopped veg - say bell peppers, leeks, tomato. No bread.
Or a tin of tuna / salmon, add lemon, cucumber, tomato, lettuce.

Those might suit you too, Cheeky