5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning all - well done to all of you that are showing SV's. After two weeks of losing today the scales are showing I have put most of it back on (3 out of the 4lbs lost so far) which doesn't add up as I have been MFP'ing daily and only went over TDEE once by a couple of hundred calories. Today is a NFD as I will be doing FD's on Tuesday and Thursday but I will just keep at it and hope that next week there is a giant loss to make up for it.

Is it totm soupey? I know I pile on the lbs around that time!

Some great losses here, well done everyone!

Good luck to all Monday fasters.

The scales don't show a change for me but I have lost an inch off my hips and half an inch off my tummy! My clothes are hanging so much better. I think I will aim to lose another 7lb and accept that it might take a while to shift the last of this stubborn fat.

Don't fret about up and down scale numbers soupey. Mine go up after the weekend then level out again. Have you measured yourself? Take your loss over a month as your hormones might go lala at different times. Mine go up 2 weeks before "grumpy week" (my oh calls it)

Hi sadly totm is a dim and distant memory nowadays so I can't even blame that!!

I must admit I don't think I drank much over the weekend (water and soft drinks that is) which could be a part of the problem so I have had a nice healthy breakfast of a pint of water.

Morning, back to it with a vengeance today. FD and must remember to drink water. Will post later...

hi. well done to those with losses. this is my second day of sticking to an eating window. am now 17.5hrs into fast and think i'll try and aim for another couple of hours or so after i meet my son from school before breaking it..

yesterday towards the end of my eating window i suddenly felt so thirsty and just drank and drank water without seeming to be able to feel satiated. am just going to take it as a reminder to drink more during fasting time i think.

morning all, some great reported losses, well done!

FD here. planning a trimmed pork chop with veg, followed by greek yoghurt, berries and seeds, and a sugar free jelly about 7pm, my usual FD approach. Nothing but black coffee and water till then and going to the gym at lunchtime.

weighed in at 8 8 this morning, basically my happy weight, after 6 non FDs and going over TDEE at least twice. 6:1 is clearly ok for maintenance. Loving this WoE.

Even after menopause soupey, your body still produces hormones, in different amounts. This may still affect you.

Well, that's me told BigChoc!!

I know that would be eating badly. I am being very short term in my thinking, clearly. All I want is to be able to fit into the clothes I have in my wardrobe which are really nice, and I know that if I lost 9 lb or so, I would be able to. I am trying to think of the easiest way to lose that weight. I would feel full enough, and not have cravings on a bar of chocolate and a big bag of crisps a day (spread across two sittings, you understand) but I get that it isn't a healthy way to eat or to lose weight. I need to properly understand that better eating has to be a way of life.

Lots of food for thought here. I am really inspired by so many experiences on here.

Thank you.

Congrats on your SV, Short and especially on achieving the healthy BMI milestone

You are making really good progress Biscuit and you'll get to that BMI too.
All those weekly losses add up.

Well done on your inches NSV, Boldly That's lost fat.
Just continue to be patient and you'll trim off the final few stubborn lb.

Welcome Kitla and well done on your SV. Good start.

Soupey Sounds like a temporary blip and yes, still possibly hormonal.
f you had a carby weekend, that could be retained water, which should be released after the next FD. You may have a lot of undigested food which will also go poo
Fluctuations of a few lb are normal, that we only notice when trying to lose weight and measuring so exactly

Sorry, Welltidy but eating only crap on FDs would be likely to make you look flabby even if you did lose weight. Not a good look.

It's always best for health AND shape to lose weight around your waist, but carby junk tends to add weight there.
It also risks damaging your insulin metabolism. In any case, you'd probably regain quickly
So, you might lose it -temporarily - from your lower half or boobs but even add some fat around the waist. Clothes won't hang well.
NO research has been done on the effect of IFOC (IF on Crap)

welltidy, which do you love more, your clothes, your chocolate or insde your body??
You can have your Mars bar tomorrow and your crisps.
I've just had a nice bowl of porridge with a sweetner mixed in. Just enough to end my 18hrs last supper. It was sweet enough to fill the (custard cream) hole.
Come on you can do this.

Ugh. Seem to have some sort of feeling-crap virus since Thursday. Could hardly get out of bed at the weekend and still not right today. Poor dog is going nuts for lack of walks, or v short walks. So haven't been fasting, and in fact have been eating chocolate to cheer myself up! But just weighed myself this morning and I haven't gained (or lost) anything so hopefully I'm burning off the cals fighting the infection. Hopefully will feel well enough to fast again by about Wednesday.

Thanks annie, I appreciate your efforts and I know you're right. Mental strength, mental strength. You're all right, goddamn you.

Hi, can I rejoin?! I started 5:2 nearly two years ago. I lost nearly 2 stone in two months and felt amazing, in so many ways! Kept the weight off for six months, then fell pregnant with DC3 grin. After 7 months, struggling to shed the baby weight so decided to get back into 5:2. Going away beginning of June to Portugal, do I'd love to lose at least 2 stone if I can.

FD here today. Halfway through a revolting pot of soup from Pret. Boss tried to sabotage me with cakes - i wouldnt mind but i dont even like cakes, except when i am not allowed to have them!

Avoiding the scales at all costs for the time being.

welltidy This is from the The fast diet website FAQ section:

◢What are the best foods for fast days?
The Fast Diet book contains lots of recipes, the Fast Diet Recipe book has even more. The basic principle is to eat foods that are high in protein and fibre, as these are the most satiating. That means fish, meat, vegetables.
◢What foods should I avoid on a fast day?
It is best to avoid refined carbs on fast days ie anything white or rich in sugar. That means pasta, rice and potatoes, as well as the more obvious things like donuts!

Hope that helps. I think the study I was thinking of was on the original programme where IF was done and on NFDs the patients ate burgers etc but still had improvements in heart health i think from memory.

Just had a quick look. It was Dr Christa Verady's research(still ongoing) that showed you could eat junk or whatever on NFDs and stick to 500 cals on FDs and still improve cardiovascular health. She put half the people on high fat and the other half on low fat but the results were the same as long as they stuck to 500 cals on FDs.Not sure about other health problems though and it's far better for your well being, digestion and energy to retrain those bad habits and eat much smaller amounts of those junky items.

It's important to realise that for Varady "junk" on NFDs meant high-fat burgers etc. She did NOT consider an entire day of sugary carbs - too crazy, probably.
Most folk will be ok with a burger and a donut on an NFD, just not the entire TDEE used up on sugar and crisps.

5:2 isn't low fat, so that's not a problem. In fact, low carb or low GI fits well with 5:2.
So, someone could happily have a big burger with a bit of salad for the 500 FD cals, but no bun or fries or donut.

Varady has NOT researched, nor has anyone else, what happens if you deliberately plan every week with entire FDs of sugary crap.

Anyone might occasionally succumb to a choc bar or crisps on an FD. We don't aim for perfection.
However, that is v different in quantity from planning 2 entire days per week in which carby junk, with zero nutrients, wrecks your insulin profile for the day.
Those 2 FDs need to give you stable insulin levels, to allow fat-burning and help correct any insulin metabolism issues that may be blocking weight loss.

Ok bigchoc I knew I should have left the science bit to you! Just completed your suggestion of a 1 min x 3 plank with 1 min rest intervals. It changes it up a bit, so might alternate days of that and days of pushing 2mins. Thanks.

I don't know about you but I have a major sweet tooth, however the nature of a FD means that I just don't want sugary crap, chocolate etc, as I'm focusing on using what little kcal allowance I have on food that will nourish me and make me feel well fed.
I do plan a square or two of dark chocolate into my day though, as I hate to feel deprived. I also plan a nice biscuit or treat into the next day's meal plan (as dessert) - the "I'll have it tomorrow" mantra works well for me.
Hope that makes sense

Worst part of the FD right now. Had lunch a while ago and now I'm not hungry hit just starting to get fidgety. Dinner will be about 7.30 so I'm making herbal tea. Sometimes I have a little cube of cheese around about now, but trying not to today.
Hope all my fellow Monday fasters are doing well today!

*but, not hit. Sorry.

7pm here and am finished eating for the day. still aching like mad from yoga yesterday (some kind of evil self healing kria that required attempting 26 consecutive rounds of sun salutations then rest then repeat - my arms are and shoulder muscles are killing me) or i'd have been inspired to do the 3x1 minute plank. will try to remember tomorrow.

again i've got a crazy thirst on me and am guzzling water galore. i'm trying to think positive and think it's a sign i'm burning lots of fat. anyone else noticed much more thirst since fasting?

tomorrow i have to travel to the nearest city and go to the visa office for the first of two visits to sort out my extended visa. it should make the fast section of the day very easy as there won't be any food around till i get back which probably won't be till about 2pm so i should get a good 19hrs and just do a 5hr eating window.

is anyone else doing a daily fast and narrow eating window? i'm aiming for around 18:6 on a daily basis.

Have it tomorrow works v well on FDs for me too, Maddy and I then appreciate the NFD treat much more.
One square of choc on FDs or an Options hot choc is totally unimportant, probably < 10% of FD cals.

On NFDs, I like a few squares of 90% cocoa Lindt choc too.
Sooo chocolatey and that % and amount is basically a health food, with all the antioxidants.
Or if I'm at a really good restaurant, I'll enjoy something from the pud trolley - I've found I no longer enjoy crappy low quality puds. My taste buds have changed.

We do need to drink more when fasting, Badger as we are getting less water from the reduced quantity of food.
Start each day with a big glass and keep drinking - and peeing - through the day. Good to flush out the system.
Water is of course a byproduct of fat-burning, so could be a sign you are doing well.