5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hello!
Second FD of the week today. Busy with meetings which should help, but I will be hanging about at a train station for a bit which won't help. Still, it will be good to give my will power a bit of a workout. .. ;-)

Good luck to the other FDers today!

Thought i might join you in the hopes of motivation to continue. I am very good at starting diets, but even better at getting disheartened and giving up. Started 5:2 in mid December (obvious choice really ) and was doing quite well 7lbs down. Just hopped on scales and 4lbs back on in 4 days!! How is this possible? Must get through and stick at it. Find fast days very easy, but the nfd's i can eat for England, i do realise this is my error, but i am simply ravenous, cold and am feeling virtuous about the day before. Must learn self control!

Morning all

Have done a sneaky midweek weigh in - bonkers really considering TOTM is still hanging around, however I went for it anyway and its showing a breakthrough the 15st barrier! Weighed in at 14st 13.5lb (so only just) but am over the moon, especially considering the TOTM / water retention rubbish....

hoping by next week it will be even lower!

Congrats on breaking the barrier, MrD! Bringon, I've had the same problem yesterday with my NFD, so cold and TOTM and that's how I justified munching on a bag of macadamias before dinner plus a tablespoon of almond butter after. Not the worst snacks, but v. calorific. (My blood glucose was fine, at least - I'm T2D.) I haven't had brekkie today, hoping for a mini-fast to try and balance the weekly calorie intake.
Good luck all Wednesday fasters!

yay MrD

Well done, MrD!

Welcome back to 5:2, bringonsummer. I also have to be a bit careful not to go mad with 'treats' on my NFD. One thing which is working well for me at the moment is to have one of my fast days at the weekend- it puts the brakes on that whole 'go on then...as it's the weekend' mentality. I treat it almost like a mini retreat day. DH takes the toddler out in the morning so I have a few hours of leisurely tea drinking, meditation and reading. We then have a family walk after lunch and an early dinner at 5 where I can eat pretty normally- usually with more veggies and less carbs on my plate compared to the rest.
My BMI has come down to 22.8. I'm trying to work out what would be a good weight for me to maintain at. I think I still need to lose 7-10lbs to shift the weight on my belly. This is the only place where I have the extra pounds now. DH is also feeling motivated to get fitter and has offered to come up with some simple HIT and resistance routines we can do together in the evening.
That is definitely the next hurdle for me...I can't manage a single press up!

Thanks for support and ideas vibrant and boldly. I am a carb addict - especially bread in any form. I wish i could say my snackinh is healthy but calorific, but it is mostly junk and calorific. I will just have to accept that skinny sylphlike figues do not occur overnight with no sacrifice - how frightfully disappointing.

I can fully recommend the hiit training though. I am good at the exercise bit (thankfully). Hiit completely changed my shape, although still a little round for my likings !

Thank you bigchoc.
FD today #2 of the week. So far, so good. Black coffee diet today

Hi Bringonsummer

Many of us struggled with NFDs in the early days. I used to find that an hour or so after breakfast I'd be raiding the packet of biscuits! So we figured that having something to eat woke up the appetite for the rest of the day.

The solution to that is not to have breakfast, if you can possible manage it!

4lbs in 4 days sounds like there's a lot of water in there - I think BC said that for every ounce of carbs you eat, the body retains 2.5 ounces of water. And I've always said that weight gained over a short period disappears after a couple of FDs. Provided that you stick to your TDEE!

And that's the key, really, keep to your TDEE on NFDs! And check out the OP.

Good luck!

Well done MrD What a nice feeling.
Looked back at an old notepad from last year last night. Before 5:2 I was just on "a diet" and doing quite well until May/June when I gave up and piled it all back on. Willpower just isn't for me.

Finding 5:2 much easier as it isn't restricting all the time.
2015 lowest weight was 10st13 in May. I'm back to 11st7 now but feeling positive as I'm having a good FD today, keeping busy, not feeling peckish like I have done previously.

Had a Covent Garden Co skinny Goan chicken and lentil soup for lunch which was delicious and filling.

Just accidentally ate a small spoon of hummus tho - was tasting it to see if it was still ok for DD to have for lunch!! Oops! Funny how you don't think about these little things.
Dinner will be chicken and avocado salad with a drizzle of balsamic vinegar.
Should take me to just under 600 for my b2b.

Well done MrD What a nice feeling.
Looked back at an old notepad from last year last night. Before 5:2 I was just on "a diet" and doing quite well until May/June when I gave up and piled it all back on. Willpower just isn't for me.

Finding 5:2 much easier as it isn't restricting all the time.
2015 lowest weight was 10st13 in May. I'm back to 11st7 now but feeling positive as I'm having a good FD today, keeping busy, not feeling peckish like I have done previously.

Had a Covent Garden Co skinny Goan chicken and lentil soup for lunch which was delicious and filling.

Just accidentally ate a small spoon of hummus tho - was tasting it to see if it was still ok for DD to have for lunch!! Oops! Funny how you don't think about these little things.
Dinner will be chicken and avocado salad with a drizzle of balsamic vinegar.
Should take me to just under 600 for my b2b.

Hope you feel better soon mapless
**
And good luck to my fellow weds fasters x

Well how's Wednesday gone for everyone?? Are the lurgys subsiding?? Get the fluids down you & keep warm.
I kept going maples, thank you. Just had 451 calorie homemade yummy cottage pie & veggies. My first FD that I've not eaten all day. 23 hours since last night's meal. Happy with that.
Home alone so no one to offer ' what do you want with your tea'.
Hope its been kind.xxx

Evening all. I've stuffed my face today (NFD) but I'll still come in under TDEE as I'm having courgetti for dinner. I'm cold, tired and crabbit!

I must be getting used to this FD melarkey cause no headache today . Only mistake I made was going shopping after work. Lots of tempting smells and I felt a bit tired but resisted temptation. Came home to a gorgeous bubble bath (I have a good husband) just about to have my chilli from the fast cook cookbook and that will be the KC at 498. Well done to my fellow Wednesday fasters!

Rather to my surprise, I think I am actually enjoying this new WOE. :)

FD yesterday really wasn't difficult and I'm not dreading it tomorrow either. Today was NFD but have been trying to eat sensibly and have stayed well within TDEE.

I can see myself sticking with this lifestyle for the long term.

Nice to see everyone else enjoying this WOE and not struggling. One funny thing I have found is that at the end of a FD like today I find myself thinking oh now what am I going to eat tomorrow, worrying, and then it hits me I can eat normally tomorrow, it's not an all-the-time "Diet". It's quite funny really.

Kc 492 , well done all.
Shopping on an empty FD onlyway, very brave lady.
Now to challenge my 1600 tdee- eating, its lower than calculators say but scale is not moving - inches have.

Congrats on your SV, MrD Welcome to the 14 stone somethings.
Next week you should be firmly in that range - motivation for a sensible weekend.

Comgrats on your BMI, Boldly
If you have waist / height < 0.5 then I recommend you aim for 0.45. Ideal is 0.38 - 0.45
To choose your goal weight & shape, try the links to the 2 body visualisers under the How To Start section near the top of the OP

Be patient, Annie If you've lost inches and you genuinely eat within sedentary TDEE (i.e. don't forgot to put things in mfp) then the scales will catch up.

Welcome, Summer

That 4 lb is probably mostly retained water if you've been bingeing on junk carbs for a few days. Excess carbs store 3-4 x their weight of water, so every 250g carbs can mean an extra 1kg
The water weight should go after an FD, but may come on again if you binge again.

To get NFDs under control, I strongly recommend you mfp, to train yourself to eat roughly TDEE - use the calculator in the OP and set activity level to sedentary, unless you genuinely are very active.

Also, NO snacking between meals.
If you want a "treat" like crisps or cake, have it as part of your meal.
Even "healthy" snacks like fruit raise your insulin and make you hungry.
Try not to have more than ONE portion of carby junk per day, especially sugary crap, which adds fat straight to your waist.

I gave in to temptation at the railway station! A nakd cocoa bar, 135 calories. But FD is finished up at 550 for the day.

I did manage to avoid temptation at the office I was in today. A staff room FULL of sweets, biscuits and cakes. I ate my soup, read Game of Thrones and ignored all the junk that was calling my name

Also sneaky weigh this morning had me at bang on 12 stone. My first interim target! Waist is 33.5 inches so have lost 0.5 inches and about... 4 or 5 lbs already
Woo!

Well done gin

Not sleeping well at the moment. Tired so going to bed early but waking tired around 4am and can't go back to sleep.

And I have horrible first TOTM after giving birth almost 10 months ago. I still have a good 2 weeks to month before it starts but it's ramping up. Does anyone have any suggestions for supplements to balance mood? I'm a ragey, sad horror atm.

Fd today.

Congrats on your SV and wqist NSV, gin Good start.

Good to hear you are getting on so well with 5:2, Broken
Most of us maintaining successfully do so with 5:2 or 6:1 and we find this sustainable longterm.
I think tip has been maintaining for 3 years on 5:2

Digger Evening Primrose Oil might help.
However, the greatest influence will probably be type of food.
I recommend you go low GI until totm is over:

• NO snacking between meals, even "healthy"mones
• Cut out sugary junk (choc, sweets, cake, biscuits etc), crisps etc
• Cut out fruit juice. No more than 2 portions of fruit per day and go for the lower sugar ones, e.g. apples, pears, tangerines, not banana
• Swap starches to complex carbs, e.g. brown rice, wholegrain bread. Potatoes should be boiled or baked, no chips or mash Have smaller starch portions and add lots of lentils and beans instead
• Loads of veg

Mapless, I'm afraid a scratchy throat exactly describes it. But that only lasted a couple of days - hope it doesn't knock you out as it has done to me!

Earlier this afternoon I thought I'd be fit for my philosophy class and teaching session tomorrow - then I promptly fell asleep for about 4 hours. I'll see how I feel in the morn - but I'm not very hopeful!

All in all, it's just a bloody nuisance I can do without - but that's all it is!

Finding 5:2 much easier as it isn't restricting all the time.

it's not an all-the-time "Diet".

I think I am actually enjoying this new WOE.

Good recommendations all!