5:2 Thread number 53: You won't get the bum you want by sitting on the one you have. Come join us ! You may not reach your goal next week, but you'll be closer than you are now.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know
Alcohol: Calc Safe , Calc Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning everyone.
fusspot I second fasting on Friday. The thought of going to a restaurant on a FD is pretty daunting! Hope you have a lively holiday.
Second FD today for me. Stayed withing TDEE but only just yesterday. I was a bit disappointed but DH went to the gym after putting DD to bed so we ate quite late.
I reintroduced exercise fairly gently by doing a quick kettlebells routine, 25mins. Hoping to either do a class today or some form of exercise when I get back from work.
Interesting talk about milk. I use semi-skimmed and allow myself 4 cups of coffee with milk with a much smaller dash than usual, and count that as 180ml. Any other coffees are black with Satan's whizz. I drink lots of coffee, but only instant. I do try to have herbal teas too but tbh they don't do much for me. The only one I like enough not to simply tolerate is peppermint.
Feeling quite tired this morning...here's hoping I get through today OK! Good luck all Thursday fasters.

Morning!

Just dropping by to report a long-awaited SV - finally the scales show a number beginning with a 5 at 59.80kg. That's 6.5kg lost in about 10 weeks.

Good luck to all Thursday fasters.
And hello to all the new fasters, stick to 5:2 and follow the tips on this thread and you will reach your goals, this is a wonderful WOE.

NFD yesterday and was having tea cooked for me (nice healthy Turkey stir fry) by OH he wanted to have a dessert too but I just couldn't do it! I looked at all the sickly sweet desserts and I just couldn't chose one I knew it wouldn't be as good as it looked! I ended up not getting one! Also someone bought galaxy chocolate which is in the fridge and I can't bring myself to eat that either because I know the taste won't compare to a good quality dark chocolate. Seriously don't know what's wrong with me! I can't not ever have chocolate/dessert again because I don't fancy it!

Morning all, last working day here for the week thank goodness.

The info and amazing results health/exercise and loss wise are mind blowing, hope everyone of you are going to bed smug as for jogging in the woods ooo I will one dayx

Can I please ask some advice, as I stated I have at least 9 stone to lose and as usual have jumped in feet first and said I would do 4:3 for a few weeks then drop to 5:2 I B2B fasted on Mon and Tues and ate up to 1900 kcals not made best choices mainly as awaiting a shopping order. I was planning another FD today but considering doing maybe a 1000kcal half fast instead from lunch timeish. Not due to FD being too hard but more to not going too low on weekly cals, my TDEE is 2400 plus I walk 7-11k daily with my fitbit so fasts are usually burnt off easily, I am looking for a 7lb loss a month but have too much info to process now lol. Sorry if this too much waffle.

Thanks bigchoc- second FD done

I thought I'd drunk enough but feel v dehydrated this morning so obviously not ... Felt fine yesterday though

Roll on four NFDs

O BB 4 NFD scare me :) Hope you enjoy xx

Bump

Morning all. Thursday is usually a FD but as I have had low blood pressure for the past few days I think I will do a mini fast instead and hope to feel well enough to do one tomorrow. Good luck to all of today's fasters.

Thank you Big Choc and confused for your replies. I had been thinking grilled meat and salad but it would be tempting and dressing and marinade could undermine my efforts I suppose. Saturday flight very early so might have to subsist on a hard boiled egg!

stripytees congrats on breaking the 60k barrier! that's a really quick loss in a short time too =)

curvy i am wondering if I read your post wrong, but if I understood it right you are -just- starting the 5:2 diet and you've had 2 fast days back to back since monday, and are considering another or a half-FD today?

If I understand it right, I think you're much better off easing up. To start this diet with two fast days back to back is quite a bang! Personally I'd say that trying a 3rd is too much particularly as it's your very first week on the diet.

I'd suggest leaving it until sunday or monday and then doing a FD, then waiting a couple of days then donig the next.

4:3 is generally something you work up to I think. Taking it steadier gives your body time to adjust and your mind too. It gives you a much better chance of keeping the diet up and really loosing the weight.

Thanks Meerka, there was a method to my madness for this weeks FD I am using up last few weeks of a pre paid weigh in with slim world and its a Wed evening hence the Mon/Tues fasts, I totally get what your saying and if I can keep my losses regular on a monthly basis it would be life changing for me, to say the thought of eating up to my TDEE for 5 days a week though is really un-nerving me to say the least. Just trying to find my way I guess and the courage at the mo.

I see about the SW thing, yeah. It's just that from what you say, I wonder if taking a step back and trying 2 FDs a week then eating up to TDEE other days might stabilize your whole physical system. 9 stone will come off easier if you take it steady and a bit slow ... even though it's frustrating.

I get the frustration, btw!

curvy Try to relax.
If you have 9 stone to lose, there is no need to do extra FDs or mini-FDs. Ordinary 5:2 on its own should lose weight quickly for you - 4:3 is unnecessarily hard.

I strongly recommend you just do the basic 5:2 now.
It is best to prepare for the long haul by treating your body kindly, getting used to fasting, learning healthy sustainable habits.
If you've been dieting a long time, your body probably needs nourishment and time to relax on NFDs.

So:

. Just 2 FDs per week. No additional mini-FDs
. Don't fast again this week. Just try to eat healthily on NFDs
. If you worry about 4-5 NFDs in a row, then do non-consecutive FDs from next week onwards.
. Eat within sedentary TDEE on NFDs. At this early stage, don't try for a deficit on NFDs as well.
. This WOL needs to be longterm to lose 9 stone, so it must be sustainable, not too hard.
. Stay with the above plan for at least 2 weeks, then we can review

Generally best to start with a gentle regime, then tighten up later if you hit a plateau. Not the other way round.

Congrats on your SV, Stripy Smashing the 60kg milestone !

Calfon If you have BP problems atm, I suggest leaving the FDs until next week. Have a mini-FD today, but only if that's not a strain.
Then have a sensible weekend, good nourishing food, roughly within TDEE.

Enjoy your Turkish meal, fusspot Much better to relax and enjoy a really good meal out, instead of watching the others and feeling deprived.

Hi Curvy. I'm just starting too! Lovely to start at the same time as others to keep ourselves on track and plenty of great advice on here!

I feel your pain about wanting to get a good start but from my previous weight loss (I didn't put it ALL back on), doing something you can stick with long term that fits in to your day and becomes a habit is definitely the way to go for me. I can't "diet" because then I focus too much on food and get hungry.

I'm going to find NFDs harder to start with, probably because I've been used to eating/drinking far too much for years and am aiming for about 1500 calories a day - sedentary older woman. It's the older that really hurts! With all the weight I have to lose, 5:2 is easy to keep up. Back to school next week so less time for over-thinking.

I'm only doing this because I've seen fantastic results in RL friends. We can do it too!

Wonderful and totally agree, I have starved and pretended for far too long I will do as both advised chill the hell out and enjoy good healthy foods with the family x

I wanted to add something about fruit, sugar and MFP... because I refuse to see fruit as an enemy.

The problem with MFP's sugar calculation is that it will consider the sugar to be exactly the same whether it came from an orange or from a can of Fanta. But your body will treat these two very differently.

I refuse to see fruit as the enemy and do eat about 2 portions a day - usually berries with natural yoghurt for breakfast and then an apple, orange or whatever is seasonal (love nectarines at the moment!) as part of a meal. A lot of fruit has so many good nutrients, for example blueberries are full of antioxidants. I wouldn't recommend having five bananas a day but cutting out fruit long term is unnecessary too. Listen to your body; personally I don't find fruit triggers cravings for sweet stuff but I know some people do feel that way.

If you're worried about the sugar from fruit, eat it with something that has fats. This has been tried and tested by a friend who has T2 diabetes and checks his blood sugar often - if he eats something sugary with fats, it won't spike his blood sugar like pure sugar would. So apples with almond butter, strawberries with cream yoghurt etc. Purely in terms of blood sugar he actually finds a portion of chips is better than boiled potatoes, but don't try that at home.

Just checking in. This weeks FD have been easy. I've had horrendous norovirus and haven't eaten anything for 72hours. Feeling marginally better today. Will take me a while to read back.

Fruit is very different from added sugar, but it can cause cravings on FDs, because not much other food is consumed with it, to bring the glycemic load down.
This is why we recommend concentrating on protein and veg, leaving fruit and most starches for NFDs.
It's just seeing from experience what works better on FDs for most people

On NFDs, if you are losing the average 1lb weekly, no need to change iyour system.
However, keeping within 2 portions fruit per NFD can help those who have problems with insulin metabolism (up to 70% of adults) and have stubborn fat around the midsection.
For those whose weight won't budge, swapping some fruit to veg or lower GI fruit can make a difference.
If you have fruit, have it as part of a meal, because IF involves getting used to spaces between meals, not snacking or grazing.

It is about a balance and for most folk, 1-2 portions fruit to 7 of veg works well

Stripes - my MIL was a T2 diabetic who managed for many years without insulin by careful control of her diet - she would eat strawberries drowned in cream! She lived independently into her 90s.

Xposted with BC - MIL's fruit and veg intake was very much along those lines. I think she found out for herself what worked - if she had too much sugar she'd feel grim so knew what to avoid. This was before Atkins or low carbing or anyone had measured the GI of foods.

Poor you, 50shades I do hope you feel better soon. Keep drinking plenty of water.

Warning after stomach bugs: Leave at least a full week after your last symptoms before fasting again. Even when you feel ok, your stomach is not in a condition to handle fasting and may react with return of symptoms - some folk found this out the hard way.

In that interim week, just eat heathily within TDEE with plenty of water and try to avoid alcohol or junk.

Obviously when ill, don't eat if you don't want to

Just checking in. 6 hours to go til bedtime on FD no.2, and it's going pretty well, all things considered. Not a morsel has touched my lips and I'm going pretty well on water sugar-free pop and black coffee.

Looking forward to a hard boiled egg when I get home, then my FD staple, dhal soup. 100g of lentils makes 2 big bowls, which satisfies me just enough in time for an early night.

stripytees my Italian MIL used to eat her oranges drizzled with olive oil. My dh also does this sometimes. It is delicious and I don't eat them this way because of the calories but I might rethink it!