5:2 Thread number 53: You won't get the bum you want by sitting on the one you have. Come join us ! You may not reach your goal next week, but you'll be closer than you are now.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know
Alcohol: Calc Safe , Calc Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Stripy Maybe it's because you plan your meals on an FD.
Try planning your meals in advance for NFDs too, not necessarily calorie counting, just planning good healthy meals.
Also, no snacks ! Do you snack or graze or NFDs ? If so, that would keep insulin levels raised, hence cravings

igivein i imagine that if running is a no-no then cycling woudl also be a bad idea. You flex the achilles tendon a lot in cycling, I think

Igivein, I have had an achilles problem too and was also given the sort of heel exercises Bigchoc mentions. Be VERY cautious as you can think it's all better and then it's not. Also the physio said don't wear very flat shoes, and especially not flip flops or Birkenstocks.
Gel heel inserts from Boots are very good.
I was out of exercise for a couple of months with mine and it still flares up but as soon as it does I avoid jogging and wear chunky low heels more.
It will probably hurt more in the mornings when you first get out of bed. Is that the case?

Day 1 and I managed 551 calories which I'm really happy with (plus one tiny, tiny slither of cheese when I was making dcs' lunch but I mean really tiny and thin) I had a lovely fish mornay ready meal from M&S just now which was 332 cals and feel very nicely full. It was surprisingly tasty, although probably loaded with salt.

Please no-one come and tell me that because I went 51 over that it was all pointless!?

oh sorry, just saw big Choc's post, ignore what I said!

Fusspot, funny you should mention the skimmed milk. It might be lower in calories, but it's higher in carbs, sugar and sodium. I was going to have a skinny cappuccino today (NFD, but making a conscious calorie and nutrition counting effort), but decided on the full fat because of the sugar content.

Which brings me to this: Does anyone know why MFP lists the daily allowance of monounsaturated & polyunsaturated fats as 0, when they are supposedly better fats than saturated fats? That really confused me today.

Acatcalledjohn
I don't know where to check that fact about skimmed milk having more sugar, carbs and sodium though it strikes me as nonsense. I can see that once the fat is skimmed off then relatively speaking there would be a higher proportion of those in the skimmed milk, but negligable.
I use very little as nothing makes up for semi in my tea, but I like black tea even less.

ACat - I was a bit surprised by what you said about milk, so I just went to check the labels on the skimmed and full-fat milk in my fridge (both Cravendale).

The carb/sugar content per 100mls of skimmed is 4.9 vs 4.7 for fullfat, which really is an insignificant difference in the amount even I'd have in tea, and even in a latte would only be about 0.5g difference. The salt content is listed as .1 in both. The calcium and protein content are a little higher in the skimmed (again insignificantly). But the calorie count is 37 vs 65 - if you like a few cups of quite milky tea that can make a significant difference on an FD. Fortunately for me I prefer skimmed in tea anyway! I'd have fullfat milk in my coffee on an NFD but purely because it tastes better.

How many calories is a typical cup of tea with SS milk then?

entirely
the easiest is to measure out 100ml of milk into a jug and drink that in your tea during the day.
Then you know where you are
after all cup sizes vary : mine holds a whole pint

BigChoc, Meerka and entirely thanks for the responses -I'll give the exercises a go.

Well done on your FD, Entirely An extra 50 cals is totally unimportant.

My tip for FD Milk
(& sugar if you must use it - many of us have sweeteners instead)
Measure out in advance the total you plan for the day, calculate its calories and put it in a little jug or sealed container.
You decide yourself how many calories you can afford and what kind of milk you want.

mfp
The only important quantities to monitor - if you wish to mfp - are total calories and sugar.
I have a chart here that shows sugar hidden in some common foods.
Sugar can seriously hinder weight and waist loss.

I wouldn't bother at all about the fat, whether its total, or its type.
Many recent studies into fat have shown it can sometimes be very healthy, especially olive oil, coconut oil, nuts, avocado, fish - crazy to limit these, unless to stay within calorie target

100ml? I need at least 300 and usually more!

I'm wondering why I find FDs so much easier than NFDs!

stripy, if you were to go back and look at some of the 5:2 threads over the last nearly 3 years, you'll see this is a common complaint - and, indeed, one I've made myself.

Most of us have dealt with it by skipping breakfast on NFDs as well as FDs. And now it's no longer an issue - at least in my case.

I wrote a blog post on the subject, with some NFD tips which could help.

the taste of something sweet just made me ravenous.

choppings, the trick here is to break the cycle. It's not that you've suddenly become ravenous, but that your taste buds want more of what you've just had. Vegans have a natural ally here in that we've all got some nutritional yeast in the cupboard. One teaspoon of this and your desire for something sweet is banished. However, pretty much anything will do the trick - I've tried celery, raw mushroom, slice of tomato; they all seem to work.

It's best to try to remember this after the first biscuit - and not the seventh!

igivein I posted before seeing bigchoc's post, I'm quite certain she knows more about it than me, so please do ignore what I said!

errol you know you are a tea addict when nearly 1/4 your FD cals go on milk-for-tea :D

Gets confusing as I've seen bigger differences, Errol! I shall check next time I'm in a supermarket .

This is all so interesting. I am totally intrigued about it and how it works and why on earth I feel way less hungry than I normally do but with far less food. Time I watched the Horizon programme!

I am settling for the evening with a lovely fruit tea (3 cals so not exactly busting my 551 too much). I don't feel remotely hungry and it's been fine apart from that mid-morning light headedness.

I would say to any future new people, try not to do a supermarket shop on a FD! Lesson learned here but I even managed to resist my favourite bacon crisps.

Meerka, it's more than a quarter of mine and that's less than I have on an NFD!

I came in at just under 350cals on my first FD. I normally only drink black tea/coffee and water anyway (well, and red wine but none of that today!)

Bike ride was a bit rubbish - got a few hundred yards down the road then got a puncture. Oh well, baby steps!

A quick question about low carbing for NFDs - probably a pretty dim question. Will I lose weight more quickly if I stick to healthy low fat options or am I better on a very low carb but higher fat avocado, bacon and halloumi type option? Would love to get off to a pretty quick start.

Thanks.

goingmad
low fat is not the path to healthy eating
fat is not the enemy
sugar is
on all days the best thing to do is to look at nutrient dense foods

the best foods have no label (fruit, veg, eggs, fresh fish, fresh meat)
the next best foods have less than three ingredients (cheese, butter, dairy, bread)
any food that has ingredients you do not recognise is best avoided
and time is not a problem

• stir fries and omelettes and soups are lightning fast to fix and have lots of good nutrients in

you could have your 500 calories in G&T
but veg stir fry is probably better

the same applies to a NFD
veg and dairy and fruit and nuts and seeds and fish and meat are your friends

Meerka, Errol The tea / coffee addicts and I think tip would battle you both for the title of the 5:2 Queen Teabag
I drink cocoa with a dash of almond milk and Satan's poo crumbs (Splenda)

Thanks TalkinPeace. That suits me.

Well done on your FD, goingmad
If you specially want a quick start, make sure you keep calories within your TDEE (calculated for sedentary) on your NFDs.

Like tip said, fat is not the enemy.
Most food is fine in sensible quantities, but try to cut back on sugar: it is unhealthy for you and your waist

The one bad fat
that increases risk of T2 diabetes, stroke, heart attack.
is called trans fat or partially hydrogenated vegetable fat or oil
If you see even 1g on a label, don't buy this nonfood.

It used to be more common, but may still be in cheaper spreads and baked goods e.g. donuts, cake, biscuits, pies, pizza. Check labels if you buy these !

Can I ask a question please
I'm running out of potential fast days this week. Tomorrow I'm working but going to a Turkish rrestaurant at night. Friday I'm home with the kids but packing for breakfast time flights to Spain on Saturday. If I kept to tea and bovril all day tomorrow, what could I eat in the turkish restaurant for 400 calories. Or should I wait for Friday at home, no special meal out to get in the way. Could I eat a decent enough meal?

I'm excited for you Primal! Here's hoping the scales are kind to you after your FD.

Nothing better than breaking a new barrier.

fusspot It's very difficult when you are not used to fasting to judge 400 cals in a restaurant and stick to it. Too much temptation, social pressure, distractions.
Turkish restaurant food is delic, but difficult to avoid high cals.

I definitely recommend you fast on Friday. You'll be quite busy packing. Just make sure you do NO tasting of any food you pack to take.
You'll probably have a better flight if you haven't had an indulgent day before.
Do plan a high-protein savoury breakfast on Saturday, not cereal or sweet baked goods.