5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

We do them like a tortilla so bake in the oven. With loads of veggies its really filling. Courgettes pepper and feta going on my list for next week!

Great weight loss Moo well done, I think I will be adding yours and Dottys filings to my omelette menu, I love them as well, they're so filling and I could eat anything covered in Feta cheese!! Moo, It's hard going when the dc are up so early, I find sometimes the exercise gives me a bit more energy to cope with the lot of them!

peach great SV for you too, what's your goal weight??

I've the house work done, and the tummy is rumbling....it's all this talk about omelettes

I was in Superdrug yesterday and a woman in front of me was buying some sort of diet pills or supplements. The member of staff started giving her a massive lecture about how that was the worst way to lose weight because after she stops it, she'll just put the weight back on. Basically telling her it was much better to lose weight by eating healthily, calorie counting, and moving more. Good on the staff member for doing that but everyone was a bit listening to her lecture, especially as she was trying to put the customer off from buying their products! I really wanted to say "hey, have you tried 5:2?" but I'm not brave enough.

Well done on your SV, Peach Good steady progress
That's interesting you think this WOE helped you come off ads:
IF / 5:2 can help metabolic / hormonal issues, especially related to insulin, so that could help stabilise mood.
Also, general improvements in nutrition and body composition might have a knock-on effect.

Well done on your SV too, waves That's a good day to weigh.
If you weigh consistently after your 2nd FD of the week, you'll see the weight trend over weeks. Most folk settle down to 1lb per loss, but it can be much higher or lower if you have a lot / a little to lose.

Weight can fluctuate from week to week, due to water retention, totm etc. It certainly fluctuates day to day and FD / NFD, so if you are compelled to weigh daily, don't take those values too seriously, or get discouraged.

stripy No diet pills over the counter, or prescribed by doctors, actually work effectively, or there wouldn't be an overweight epidemic - the best pills can maybe help burn a pathetic 30 cals extra.

Some, like those containing phen-phen, are now banned because they caused heart attacks or other serious harm. Obviously, Boots don't sell anything illegal, but those were legal once.

The ones that claim to stop fat absorption are legal, but can cause horrible, very runny, faecal incontinence (someone at the gym shared with a girl who had this. She moved house)

Good for you with your SV, moo
Why not start planning your exercise start for next week. Do you want home / park / gym ? Check out our own 52 ExerciseThread2 for ideas. We have all fitness levels from total couch potato to very athletic.

BigChoc Yes, I know, I was just amazed that someone working in a shop selling them went on such a rant about them. She wasn't a pharmacist or anything, just working at the check outs. The poor customer buying them looked quite ashamed, because the member of staff had in effect announced to the 6 or so of us in the queue that this woman was buying some sort of a diet supplement.

Well done on your SV too, Cheshire So many folk doing well !
Exercise is an excellent idea. Weights are great for improving shape and fitness.

Yes, I can rant about diet pills, but odd that someone selling them should. Definitely she needs to learn about customer privacy. I wonder if she or someone she knows had some bad experiences with such pills.

Can I ask your advice 5:2ers, I have a family meal out on Saturday night and I'm just wondering what to do during the day, I don't have breakfast anymore so that's ok, but should I have lunch or just wait until we're out for the meal to eat?? It'll probably be 3/4 courses with wine, so a lot of calories, And there will be wine...of course! what do any of you normally do?? And what type of lunch would be light, an omlette??? TIA

Afternoon all, on a FD here but forgot to check in earlier. Lunch is in the oven - I am roasting a big tray of aubergines, courgettes, peppers, tomatoes and mushrooms. DH is home today so he will have the same with bread. Dinner this evening is steak, green beans and salad. I have my walk in and my 20 minute shred so happy enough but think my period is coming as I feel more than a bit ropey. Talk later.

MrsStevenPatrickMorrissey will check out the shred thread. I really like how already my waist is showing some definition - something that hasn't been seen in those parts for many years!!!

wow I've defrosted the freezer, done the food shop and come back to a whole new page!
moo your tortilla/omelette sounds great. Have to confess omelette is one thing I've never been into or cooked so no idea how but am going to give the oven version a try.
mrsspm my goal weight is 9 stone but I do wonder if I revise it. In a weird way as my shape changes I am more aware of the remaining wobbles and extra. I think there is more than 4 lbs worth there
As for your meal out it sounds fab.trying not to think too much about a 4 course meal and wine while on my fd! I would go for quinoa with loads of steamed veg. I live it for a lunch.the chick pea recipe posted last weekend is also surprisingly filling. If you need protein I would go for an egg/small portion of turkey/tuna.
thanks bigchoc. I'm convinced it has made the difference. nothing else has changed.
stripy I am at your super drug tale. I was in there this morning and spotted a big picture of Denise (?) the one off benidorm and loose women. It was a promo selling food items to eat on fds. A sort of pick and mix of 4 to reach your calories. is there nothing that the food industry won't turn into a marketing opportunity. I occasionally use m&s fuller for longer meals but this looked more like snack food.
mrsspm I hope the rumbles have gone away. I am off to finish housework and grab a shower before getting kids.
I found gammon steak at the back of the freezer. was surprised to see it's only 255cl so awning on that with loads of veg. roll on 7 pm. stay strong everyone.

I think I'd have an omlette or scrambled eggs for lunch so I didn't go out feeling really hungry, because I know otherwise I'd just go mad and inhale everything on offer!
But then you might have rather more (or at least some!) self control.

MrsSteven if it's that big a dinner I'd do my best to avoid lunch that day too . If you find yourself craving food well before that then have something like a hard boiled egg / banana to help fill the hole a little bit. Unless starting to eat just makes the hunger even worse - in which case, avoid, avoid, avoid!

Hi everyone, sorry for such sporadic posts, but this thread moves too fast to keep up.

Finding FDs very hard at the moment for some reason. Tried to fast on Monday and that was a complete fail. Made another attempt yesterday, which wasn't too bad, 650 cals or so. Will do another one tomorrow.

Last week scales showed 1.5lb gain... I hope I can shake it off this week. I know I should be stricter being quite near my goal, but somehow things get in the way...

Sometimes it's when we get near to goal that motivation slips and we can find ourselves sabotaging our great progress!

Carrot, what was the reason for your goal weight? Was it to get to a certain weight / clothes size / fit into a particular item of clothing? It might help to refocus on that, or if you didn't have a particular reason - come up with one!
Or decide on a reward for when you get there - spa treatment / new clothes / evening out with best friend - whatever works for you and keeps your mind focused on the task in hand

Arg!! I should not have baked cupcakes on a mini FD!! That's about 400cals just gone down the drain.. Off to brush my teeth, and try to hold out for supper

calfon wish I was having dinner at yours; sounds delicious.
carrot is there a time of day/activity that starts to make it really hard? If you can see a pattern it might help. I find eating a big meal or later in the evening before a fd makes it harder to get through. when my will is working blinds g a marmite drink really helps.
moo my willpower wouldn't have stood up to mini cupcakes

FD for me. Struggling a bit today and feeling quite tired but have evening class so will be going out in the next half hour. Just need to avert eyes walking through the cafe (unfortunately no alternative route).

Not long to go ...

On the upside, saw my SIL for first time since February and she mentioned straight away that I'd lost weight. Was very supportive of 5:2 too.

FD going well here. Dhal soup bubbling away, plus I also have a hardboiled egg planned for today, not yet eaten. I just licked Marmite off a spoon, mmmmmm I love Marmite. Seems to have put the genie back in the bottle until my soup is ready too

MrsSteven I'm another who'd fast all day until the big meal. Just remember not to drink wine until after the 1st course is in your tum, so you don't get too merry
If you prefer a light lunch, make it protein & veg (veg omelette is ideal) no bread or other starch, definitely no fruit or anything sweet.

Carrot 650 is a decent attempt.
I suggest you watch what you eat the day before an FD:
After lunch that day, no alcohol or sweet treats and at supper make sure your carbs are complex, palm-size portion only and avoid fruit.
On the FD, make it protein & veg only, no starches, cereal, fruit etc, to keep it really low GI.

That's a waist NSV, Calfon Very motivating and exercise definitely helps definition

Moo I firmly recommend NO junk whatsoever on FDs or mini-FDs. Concentrate on tasty, healthy food to maximise the nutrients. The fasting days need to be good for your body.

Not long to go with your FD, Confused, Granny, Calfon, Peach and any other Thursday fasters. "You can have it tomorrow."
After supper, clean your teeth and maybe have an early night, catchup on sleep.

Nearly at the end of second fast day.
Made a lovely very calorific chocolate tart and fresh bread this afternoon which I can enjoy tomorrow.
well done to all today's other fasters.

< pricks up ears > mmmm, choc tart

I think I have one of those unexpected benefits of fasting to report. For nearly a year now I've had a really painful joint in my foot where my big toe starts (that bit where you would get a bunion). Well, I've realised in the past week that actually it hasn't been hurting for two weeks or so now. It used to often really hurt in the morning or after a long day and now it's either not painful at all or just a mild discomfort.

Whether it's the 9 pound weight loss in the past 5-6 weeks or because fasting has allowed my body to heal it for other reasons, I really think one way or another it's related to 5:2.