5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

mrsw your smoothie sounds lovely, I have a smoothy maker so I'm going to have to get a few recipes from you. Do you have them on FDs or nfds??

igive your going to have to change your name to I dontgivein!! you've got such great willpower (could you post some to me please

Really interesting about fasted training....I did a 5k race on Sunday and did it fasted, I hadn't eaten from dinner the evening before, it was only afterwards I thought about it that I realised I'd actually done that, and I felt great the whole way around(well as great as you can feel doing it!) but it's so good to know that I don't have to eat before hand.

hiccup have you any frozen grapes handy??? They saved me a few times over the weekend when I've been wanting something a bit sweet after my lunch or dinner.

dotty the wedding is in Septmeber so I will really have to keep a good rein on it over the kids summer hols, which is a good thing really, I tend to go off the rails a bit then so that should keep me well focused....hopefully!

Wow Sweet that is some drawing, your really talented...

mrssteven so far I've had the smoothies on NFDs (just had my first one on monday though). I've been thinking they might be good for FDs too as without seeds they add up to around 100 calories each or around 150 with seeds and they are very filling.

I'm going to a wedding next weekend and haven't a clue what to wear - I'm sure I've got dresses which will fit fine but I really need a new jacket and maybe shoes as what I was vaguely thinking of is probably too summery yet. I started a thread here asking for advice but none forthcoming yet.

Hm, might just go and review my frocks.

BC thanks for answering my question about loose skin on the other thread- v helpful advice as always. I think maybe I've still got some subcutaneous fat there, it's very loose and floppy on my tummy, but more than a few mm when I pinch.

I lurk on here but don't post much! I've lost about 15kg doing this for the last 4 months. I've reached my original target weight but feel I was too conservative with it so have now set a lower target weight. I love this WOE but find FD much easier than NFD! Also I still seem to see the flabby bits that are left rather than concentrate on what I've already achieved...

Good to know that there are options re loose skin. I realise that I'm a long way off but I think that the chance of my tummy ever looking anything other than loose seems a pipe dream.

Had hair coloured today and I think it's too brassy, will have to go and find my aveda purple shampoo.

Today has been a hard slog of a FD as DS woke us at 4.30 this morning and I now feel totally broken.

No actual food so far today so off to find something that I can use my remaining 450 calories on. There is some fish in the fridge but I really don't fancy it. Maybe an omelette...

ITs not been a good week at all for me , I still cant get rid of this tummy bug, so im taking it easy and just eating what i like when i feel like it and not bothering about thinking about 5:2 .. ....but i think that perhaps tomorrow i may just try not eating anything at all if i can manage that and try and flush it out that way .. its go to to go soon.

Laska Sorry to hear that tum lurgie is lingering.

An excellent doctor gave me this advice re gastric flu or food poisoning:
. Drink ONLY water, no tea, coffee, juice, fizz etc
. When you feel able to eat, have ONLY 2 slices of white toast or a plain white roll, no seed, no bran
. Do not eat ANY other foods, i.e. no veg, fruit, protein, cereal, porridge etc

So, a form of fasting

I read something interesting about calories and how as long as you eat at a deficit it doesn't matter what type of calories you consume as you'll still lose fat. I wondered what people's thoughts on this are as I eat 'clean' most of the time and couldn't imagine eating my tdee calorie allowance on crap food and still loosing fat/weight?

You can eat that bread up to 1-4 times per day, if you have appetite

hevs If you keep within calorie limits, you can lose weight on crap, but it does make a difference:

. A scientific study showed a junky diet had a calorie disadvantage of up to 10% compared to a clean one, i.e. you need to eat 10% less to lose the same amount.
This is why I encourage people to eat clean if they want to speed up loss
Your body is not a calories in / out calculator: the efficiency of the engine affects how it burns calories.

. The composition of the loss may be different: a sugary diet will tend to favour fat storage around the abdomen rather than in the lower body. So, when fat is transported around the body, where it is stored depends partly on type of diet, as well as genetics.

. You are also at higher risk of losing some muscle, bad both for health and risk of later weight regain

. Sugary food may increase visceral fat - the more dangerous kimd around the organs

. Longterm, health markers and risks are likely to be higher with a poor diet, especially risk of diabetes Type 2

. The risk of weight regain is higher if you haven't learnt better habits. Also, higher insulin levels increase cravings, which makes unhealthy binges more likely.

thanks a lot bigchoc ill try that .. (id heard of something similar with white rice,)

Nearing the end of my 2nd FD (not consecutive!) and have managed to stay below my 600 cal target. Drank lots of fruit tea today; tried lots of different ones! Favourite one is Lemongrass and Ginger.

Just a cup of highlights to finish the day

Well done, waves then clean your teeth and may be plan an early night

Hang on, Hiccup Don't eat that sweet junk; it adds no nutrients to your body, just sugar and fat, straight to your waist.

I've just spent an hour and a quarter catching up on this thread! thoroughly indulgent end to FD with long bath and dyeing hair...

excuse the lack of capitals. typing on brand new phone and don't want to drop it in the bath!

lots of SVs, NSVs, positivity to catch up on. apll good to read!

I've got a SV. wanted to be 10 something by end of april and was 10s13lb yesterday and 10s12lb this morning so looking on track. yippee!

that's about a stone overall since 1 Jan so very steady. Back at normal pre-baby weight now, so am excited to see how far I can go.

did some weights in the gym yesterday - first for about a year. my stomach isn't letting me forget it today. but that's good because I didn't think I had any muscles left in my stomach!!! need to pop over to 5:2 exercise thread for first time to see advice on exercises for my core (always been weak) and quads (marathon training starts in June and I want to try to protect my knees).

Watched the Horizon documentary last night; fascinating! Makes me more determined to persist.

Weighed this morning after my 2nd fast day and I appear to have lost 2kg; is this accurate or should I weigh later in the week? just wondered if it could be falsely low due to fasting yesterday.

Well done waves! I always record my weight on the morning after the 2nd fast : post wee, pre drink / food. My first week I lost about 5lbs. But it did slow down to steadier losses very quickly for me.
2nd FD today. Planning no food until about 7pm, then I'll have a hard boiled egg and my lovely dhal soup again.

Hello again.apologies because I'm just not keeping up with this thread and like someone else said, find it hard to look back for names etc on my phone.
Anyway there are lots of nsvs and svs which are great to read about.
BigChoc thanks for replying to my tortilla blow out last week, and to the other poster who advised going out. I did! it has been my only blip and I have a sv. Down to 9 stone 3.8lb. today is a fd for me so I'm hoping a weigh tomorrow may put me properly onto 9st3lb!
I didn't have much to lose.i think this is week 6 and I started at around 9st3lb. I hope the weight loss isn't too quick. I got to around this weight before and then found I plateaued so will have to see what happens.
my nsv is that I feel so much better mentally as well as physically. I'm finally off ad's which were for pnd years ago and was then just left on. I was never comfortable taking them but I firmly believe this woe has helped. it's a bit off topic but hope it's maybe of interest or help to some. to me this is as bog a motivator to continue as anything else.
laska hope you feel better very soon. confused nice to know I'm sharing fd with you. have a good one!
waves, Cheshire, octonauts well done.and to mrsw on reaching maintenance!
moo I hope you ended your fd ok. In my short experience if I've found one tough the next one always seems easier so fingers crossed for you.
did you find any possible wedding outfits errol? will check out your other thread.

started at 9st8lb not 9st3lb. autocorrect is trying to lull me into a false sense of security!
sorry for long post.seem to lurk then post essays.

Good morning.
yesterday's NFD was a day of picking and snacking almost constantly for me however, when I did a calorie count later I was just over TDEE which really surprised me as I was sure I had eaten so much more. My appetite really does seem to be more under control and I'm surprised how quickly it's happened.
FD today and feeling peckish already most likely because of all the junk I ate yesterday! have a nice lunch planned and missing out on dinner tonight as I am busy.
good luck to all the other Thursday fasters

Lakska really hope this bug clears off soon and you can get back to normal

Cheshiresplat great achievement so far and well done for pushing yourself by doing weights in the gym! My knees are playing up at the moment. I do 3-4 dance based fitness classes a week and have had to resort to a knee support whilst I wait for an MRI scan and a referral to see what's going on with them. So I'm thinking that I might have to rethink my exercise regime. Trouble is that I love dance classes because they don't feel like exercise. The idea of doing a class that involves being told how many of x/y/z to do, or being shouted at to do it harder, or having to motivate myself just to use gym equipment instead............... blah, it all depresses me

FD for me today, and doing two classes - urbanfit this morning and a new, slightly scary one, called Vibecycle tonight. Am hoping tonight's distracts me and keeps me busy after I have my salmon based FD dinner

Morning all, FD here which I much prefer to NFDs! At least I Know where I am with a fast day!

cheshire well done you, that's excellent, and I'm very at your Marathon training, I'm really getting into my running again now, did 4 miles last night and didn't want to come home !! I find the Jillian Michaels warm up move from the 30day shread quite good for the knees and always do it before I head out running.

Octonauts well done again your post has encouraged me to keep going thanks Bigchoc for the post on the wobbly tummy stuff, looks like I've quite a bit of fat to burn off yet

Good luck today Thursday fasters, stay strong

Attempting a FD ... I tried yesterday after I had gained a little (didn't fast last week because my Mum was here, but I REALLY should have - she cooked and baked lots of proper yummy food). Anyway.

Yesterday DH tempted me with chocolate which was really unfair. I told him so later in the evening when he said "wasn't today a FD?" I managed a light day though. I also feel better for it today. But today it's just me and DD so I know it will be easier.

Laska I hope you feel better really soon!

Dotty wow at your exercise classes! They sound like really good fun

There was some discussion about fruit/herbal tea earlier in the thread. I really like fennel tea. I actually drink a tea which is supposedly good for breastfeeding and if you have a poorly tummy. It is fennel star anise and cumin.

It's available everywhere here in Germany- where I live. I also find fennel tea good for helping me feel balanced if I am getting a bit of a headache. I've also heard it is good to drink it regularly to avoid migraines. So when I say I have drunk loads of tea it is usually that I much prefer coffee to "English" tea

Good luck to all the other Thursday fasters!

Morning all,
Good luck thursday fasters.
MrsSPM - sounds like you really have the running bug!
Mrs Nutella - Good luck with your FD. My mum also always brings loads of treats etc.
Octonauts- that is an amazing loss. Well done.
Each Peach - great SV!
Dotty - I hope that your knees get better soon.

FD ended quite well and kept under 500 cals. Had a great big cauliflower omelette with chorizo ( tiny bit) and broad beans. It was like a spanish tortilla. Infact I find that eggs are a real favourite here on FD's they somehow feel very comforting after a long day of not eating.

Did a quick scale check and am 3lbs down, so hope to keep at least 2 of those off until monday.... Am attempting a mini FD again today in my massive calorie bank for the weekend away. Lets see how it goes..

When I get back I am really going to try and get into some excerise. I always seem to have an excuse not to ( generally the DC waking me at 5.30...) and I really want to get fit as well as healthy. I am also aware that sooner or later I will plateau if I don't move more...

Right. I should really get on with some work....

MrsNutella, the dance based classes are great........ I'll let you know about Vibecycle. Slightly worrying when you mention to others at the gym that you're doing it and they respond with "good luck"

I'm not very good at cooking omelettes for some reason but must bear them in mind for FD as I do like them. One with courgettes, peppers and a little bit of feta would be delicious!