5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

oh Carrot another fellow Friday faster with me
So far so good, only had 1 x rich tea biscuit earlier and just made turkey burgers ready for tea.
I am beyond tired as DH been abroad for work since last Friday and isn't back until Sunday. I am dropping the kids at scouts tonight and then diving into a hot bubble bath with a good book for the rest of the evening.

Carrotpuff I like to avoid complex carbs on FDs, simply because I find they don't keep me full long enough. I do however like to eat lentils on FDs which I find are lively and filling. I've changed my mind because I have no coconut milk and am going to make dhal soup tonight. I can get two big bowls out if the amount I make.
I am struggling with tiredness today. The fasting is going fine - just two coffee with milk so far. DD is being evil and I just don't have the energy to deal with her. DP has just texted to say he's in his way home early. Thank God - I'll be going for a lie down when he's home.

Sorry if this article has been posted before, but I can't get page 5 of this thread to display properly on my computer today.

It's a reprint on a New Zealand Web site of Sarah Burnett's Telegraph article, "'It's wrong to tell fat women they look fabulous."

I think after all the fat-positive stuff (From Fat is a feminist issue, to fat-shaming, to plus-size models being 'real women' unlike someone with a BMI of 18 yadda yadda yadda), this message is resonating with a lot of people.

If we believe all this stuff, it'll kill us.

---

Not fasting here... my hours are too erratic, but doing a sort of 16:8 thing more or less out of necessity. Trying to figure out how to 'hide' my diet from my dear FIL, who is very very Irish and if he gets wind of healhy eating habits will step up all efforts to fatten me up. He really IS Mrs Doyle. Love him but aaargh! Nutter.

--

Carrot, well done on your FD so far! I couldn't personally get through the day without a bit of carby goodness, but then I am not a 5:2 success story yet. Poached eggs on brown toast last thing does fill me up and let me sleep, though.

Sorry. Here's the link.

There's a simple rule to grazing, isn't there? It's ok if you graze like a herbivore on foods with roughly the nutritional content of grass.
We had this earlier - if you must graze, be a sheep not a labrador!

Carnivores of course are often 'fasters' - big cats at the zoo get fed 5 or 6 days a week, which is probably similar to what they'd get in the wild.

It's weigh-in day again:
Week 16, 2lb loss, 43lbs in total. I'm happy with that.
I know this isn't the exercise thread, but exercise does get mentioned a fair bit, and when it is I find myself in awe and frankly a little intimidated by the level quite a lot of you are at - doing monster runs and being able to hold a plank for three weeks and stuff, when couch potato porkers like me are going for the odd swim and trying to keep the Fitbit happy, and that's a hell of a lot more than I was doing a few months ago.
So anyway, the point of all this is that I was reading a fitness magazine last night (hoping to become a gym bunny by a process of osmosis or something...) and something I read struck a chord:
It doesn't matter how slow you go - you're already lapping those people still on the sofa.
Off to catch up on the thread now

Very good point igivein and congratulations on your loss - you're doing amazingly well! How far to goal weight?

Thanks Dotty
Goal is so far away I don't even think about it - I'm just under fifteen and a half stone and BMI just under 35.
But on the plus side, I was over 19 stone at Christmas (lost a bit before I started 5:2), I've found a WOE that suits me, and all I have to do is just carry on as I am and I'll get there - OK I'll probably need to shift from reading fitness magazines to actually doing more exercise ... but let's not be too hasty!

Just keep doing what you're doing and adjust your TDEE as you go, and all will be well

igivein - it's the sustainability of 5:2 which is so good, you know you will be able to get where you want. And sounds like you're going to get gradually infected with the exercise bug too. The thing is, the only person we're in competition with on here really is ourselves - I'm never going to be a BigChoc but I'm a better version of me than I was two years ago.

Baddz
I do not fast two days running because its too much like hard work.
I often do "mini fasts" - ie no breakfast or lunch but a normal supper - to even up when the diary messes with plans

apples
what about making up a bento box of things like cold tortilla or egg muffins ?
I love sushi so could easily have that for lunch if I was in a big city
or just a big mug of vegetable soup?

Haven't actually ended up eating much today as I feel pretty rough - totm.

Apples - when DH is in a city for a meeting he'll often go to an M&S to get lunch. Some of their sandwiches are 'feel fuller longer' with 'balanced carbs', maybe they'd be better than some of the others?, and there's all sorts of scotch eggs meat/prawns etc. (He'll often buy his dinner there too if he's staying overnight and not needing to eat out - but he does like salads esp something like the ones with lots of edamame beans so can get a pretty healthy combination).

Thanks for the welcomes a few pages ago!

I have now managed a week with no snacking. For the past week I've stuck to three meals a day, with nothing in between. I am also trying to cut out sugar, so I've had no cake, chocolate or sweets for the past week.

The next step I need to take is to make my meals healthier. Smaller portions and more veg.

Dinnerfor1
Well done you - those are actually huge strides towards a long term healthy way of eating you are making.

Congrats on your SV, igivein
15 stone something is so much better to see than 19 stone something. Be proud of yourself. You have found the WOE to achieve your goals, just relax & enjoy the journey.

Re exercise: what about starting with walking intervals in the sunshine:
1 min quick march, 1 min amble, rinse & repeat as many times as you can. Newbie exercisers improve very quickly, which is motivating.
If you post preferences on the exercise thread, I can suggest some routines

Carrot We recommend concentrating on lean protein & veg for FDs. However, some folk find a small helping of boiled / baked potato or complex carbs helps keep them full.
Do avoid added sugar or sweet treats on FDs though.

Well done, Dinner Cuttimg out snacks is a major advance. And now you know you can do without added sugar for several days - that's a very healthy step.

apples thanks for setting me right. I had gone out by then. When I reflect though all my food was Ok I think (carrot, seeds, egg). my downfall was the tortillas! that's the first time I've had something processed in 4 weeks. I'm almost pleased I did because all day since I've felt bloated and uncomfortable. I great reminder why I'm better on 5:2 and following advice on this thread. I've not had dinner- just don't feel like it.
confused I hope your fast day has gone well.badzz good luck for yours tomorrow.
Mrswhiskers misstephens and apples and others well done on sv. I am reading everyone's positives is great.
bigchoc I thought grazing was a nono so I haven't done it until my blip today. is it Ok if it's carrots, pepper etc as I think I could do that, or is still best not to at all?

TiP happy belated birthday! Did you know you share a birthday with Shakespeare?

igivein, that is an amazing loss! Congratulations!

Time for a weigh-in and some stats of mine too:
Week 11 of 5:2/week 6 of 4:3/week 1 of ADF (does that make sense?)
Today's weight: 65.6 kg, 10.3st
BMI 20.9
Last week's loss: 1kg, 2.2lbs
Total weight loss: 8kg, 17.6lbs
Goal weight: 62kg, 9.7st

I surprised myself by really loving ADF this week. It took away the stress of NFDs. I also managed to control my snacking for most part, so thanks again BigChoc for all the useful tips.

At the moment, my plan is to carry on with ADF until I reach goal weight or until it becomes painful, whichever is sooner. I might stop a couple of pounds short of reaching my goal since DD is still EBF and, outside of breastfeeding (which I am basing my goal weight on) my norkage is pretty negligible weight-wise. I will then have to worry about maintenance, but I am hoping it will be easier than trying to lose the weight.

NFD here and it is my birthday, so I am throwing caution to the wind and unapologetically loving cake. Still managed not to snack though!

I wanted to thank everyone who shares links as well - I go and read/watch/listen to everything since I spend a lot of time feeding on the sofa. I read the Fast Diet book, but did not see the Horizon programme until breadandwine linked to it, so thank you!

peach it is better not to graze, because grazing is like a succession of small snacks. Grazing, even on raw veg, keeps your insulin levels slightly raised all the time, so slightly less able to burn fat.

On NFDs, you could average say a quarter of your TDEE at each of 4 meals. You would only have 4 hrs between meals, so you won't starve, but it is good & normal (or should be) to feel hungry before a meal.
You might later find you are fine with only 3 meals.

Happy birthday, OneOrg

Also, congrats on your SV. Yes, most folk do better with a definite maintenance plan, so think about what would be sustainable.

Suitable plans after ADF:
. learning to eat within goal TDEE, with occasional FDs at need.
. OR 1-2 regular weekly FDs
. OR Varady's ADF maintenance plan of 3 weekly 1000-cal FDs
. Optionally add some 16:8 to any of the above

Just like Carrotpuff I was seduced yesterday on my FD by ds's left over quorn pie! Not a disaster, and even though it's only been a week I think my waist looks a bit slimmer

mrsstephen thread moves quickly, but I remember the last time I looked you asked where I got the magic purple sprouting broccoli from, which has helped with FD. My mum and dad grow it! Very plentiful, but I think it's in season and can be bought anywhere at the moment.

bigchoc I've worked out why I felt hungry all the time, and it was due to snacking I believe - what you say about insulin levels make sense.

Tomorrow I am planning on trying the 16:8 and also 2 FDs will be Tuesday and Thursday again. I found today when I came home from work and had lunch that I felt uncomfortably full - it was the same lunch I would have eaten before trying fasting and now I think I would be satisfied on less food.

Morning all. Just weighed, 1.5lb off. If I'd taken the reading of 2am scales addict it would have been 2lb off. How does that happen?!
Anyway I will take this morning's weight. I can't complain after my Sat/Sun/Mon/Tue. I've lost about 8lb in 3 weeks. Only another 2st to go
I am going to try and restart exercising today. I used to do loads but a combination of DD, FT working and a foot problem (Morton's neuroma) has put a stop to that recently. Foot feels better so will have a little run today.
Yesterday's FD was good. Had 3 coffees with milk, a hard boiled egg and my dhal soup (which was delicious), then a 4g square of Green &Blacks 85%. I was very tired though, but I think it was mostly due to a bad night's sleep.
This is a good WOE though isn't it? I feel that I can have a bit of a break today, have a few then eat properly but mindfully tomorrow. I love it.
Wishing everyone a happy Saturday.

Salacious Mindful eating us an excellent habit to develop. Sounds like your body is adjusting towards the amount of food it really needs.
If you eat more slowly and chew your food well, you are more likely to assess when you have eaten enough. I suggest you try serving a slightly smaller portion, because there is a natural tendency to clean your plate and not waste food.

Confused I posted upthread all the reasons why scales can vary a lot between close readings. Then there are all the reasons your body varies. Weighing every few hrs will send you nuts
Just believe the trend over weeks, because daily scales when you are on a weight loss WOE are only for fun.
Checking weight daily can be a useful habit in maintenance though, if done under identical conditions, because your body is not going through such changes.

Morning all!

Successfully got through last night with a bubble bath and long phone call with a friend (and the fact that there were no "goodies" in the house)

Just enjoyed a pain au raisin for my breakfast . Taking the kids out to a pub for tea tonight so am going to skip lunch to ensure I stay well within TDEE today. Because..........
DH is back from a 9 day work trip tomorrow so I am going to bake, and enjoy, a nice home made cake and a shepherds pie - guilt free! And maybe have a too

Feel quite rough as its totm (42 and it's getting worse!!) so won't be doing much today.
My weight is now 68kgs.
I would like to be 62kgs.
I am going on hols in July and would like to fit into my clothes!
I have had so far today:
2 cups of coffee with skim milk
3/4 of an apple (my ds2 had the rest!!)
Trying to plan my fast days....I have to have some dental work done on Thursday so that would be a good fast day!
So if I do today and Thursday? Or is that too much time between fast days?
Do you still fast when you are on holiday? Or do you have a break?
Sorry for all the questions!