5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I'm sorry I can't keep up with this thread! wanted to say happy birthday to Tip. If I can look like you at 50 I'll be over the moon!
well done to everyone for the sv and nsv.
lots of new joiners! I will have a proper read through and catch up after weekend (ds birthday and party is calling!)
my second fd is done for the week. I'm going to try and be sensible amongst all the party food

I must add more of my tips to the Tips thread.
OK, this set is reposted for Hiccup

totm & cravings
Totm hormones lower the levels of insulin and serotonin ( the feel-good neurotransmitter)
Women then crave carbs and sugar to raise these levels. However, you need to act in a controlled way, to avoid worsening PMT and weight gain.

So, around totm:

. Increase protein
. Eat complex carbs - quinoa, porridge, brown rice - and beans instead of junk carbs
. Eat fruit, nuts, seeds, avocado instead of choc, sweets, cake, biscuits ...
. The above measures will also increase magnesium levels, typically lower at totm
. Try to cut out alcohol. Trust me, it may initially feel good, but it does worsen symptoms & weight gain
. Exercise and keep moving, especially take a brisk walk in the sun

Most women retain water during totm, so weight increases a few lb
However, if you resist cravings and over-eating, no fat will be added.
So, the water should be released shortly after totm and your weight will drop down again, maybe with an extra loss if you managed to 5:2 properly.

Morning! Having to do FD #2 today on a non work day, which will be a challenge. I have playgroup (must avoid the coffee and toast), then a pile of ironing to do when DD is napping.
I like the sound of that coconut dhal upthread, I may make that for tea tonight. I find saving most of my 500cal for a stew or soup works really well on FDs. Fills me up nicely before an early night!
Hope you had a wonderful day TiP! Sorry I missed your birthday celebrations yesterday.

Good morning. Just did my weekly weigh in and I have lost another pound. I'm now 6 pounds lighter than my original goal weight. I did read in the fast diet book that many people end up losing more than they originally intended and it will stabilise.
talkinpeace I can really relate to what you said upthread about enjoying the breaks between eating days. It's only 5 weeks since I began this WOE but already I'm finding it's become a normal part of my life and something I think I could keep doing forever.
even though today is not a fast day I will be having some of the coconut dahl later and making some home made naan to go along with it.

Morning.
First fast day. I am a sahm so I think fast days will be tougher than if was busy at work.
Just cooked ds1 his cooked breakfast but actually didn't want any.
It's my totm too which doesn't help matters but I will increase protein on non fast days and see what happens!
I am fed up of my clothes being tight and feeling so sluggish.
My plan is to not eat until lunch and eat in a window from 12-6.
I have had 2 cups of herbal tea so far.
Am planning an apple, some eggs and some rice and egg for later.
that comes in at under 500 cals.

Hello everyone. Such a great thread.

I've had a really hectic week at work, not over yet,
and it's been my birthday. Waves at TIP. So some food and wine indulgences and not enough time to focus on what I'm eating. Or on Mumsnet

But I seem to have lost a pound this week and I have observed something I've learned from this thread to be very true. I should have learnt it before really, I'm 52 but there you go.

Anyway if I have small unsatisfying meals because I'm trying to lose weight I snack more and have just as many calories as if I wasn't bothering and poorer quality ones

If I have larger meals, especially with a lot of protein, I don't feel hungry in between and tend to eat better stuff with longer gaps and no snacking

Bleeding obvious but having it work in practice this week has been something of a revelation

I think my challenge is to find satisfying meals for lunchtime at work that have fewer carbs Carbs seem to make me hungry sooner but I cannot bear salad. I don't eat any cold vegetables. I'm fine if they're cooked and eat quite a lot of them at dinner, she says defensively, but I can't be doing with cold crunchy stuff. So lunch is often bread based

I'm in central London so near everything pret eat ITSU I know soup helps but I don't find it enough so I have a roll or baguette as well and even then I'm often tempted by biscuits at 5ish. I can be in the office until 7 so lunch needs to last

Any ideas? Should I buy maybe something like cooked chicken to eat as well. What do other office based people do?

Thanks, BigChoc.
Have started MFP and paying attention to the NFDs

Morning all, weighed in this morning after 2nd FD and I'm 4lb down....which brings me back down to 10st 8lbs....I'm definitley someone who can't just rely on exercise alone to shift weight, as I found out in the 3 weeks that I wasn't fasting and still continuing to run....so I use my exercise for my own mental feel good factor...which means fasting and being mindful over what I eat will have to be a part of the plan for good.

Hi Baddz I'm a sahm too, so I know what you mean, it can be difficult, I find especially when the kids are all at home, my two older dd are at school, so I find I can stay in routine when they're not on hols...but I've got a good routine going now, and you will too ...good luck with your first FD...

Well done on the weight loss everyone else.

Apples how do you find cooked but cold veggies? I'm thinking along the lines of roasted veg with quinoa. Healthy fats can help you feel satisfied longer too so maybe have some avocado or nuts with lunch? (Weigh the nuts at home and put in a small container to avoid having too many calories.)

Oh no!
Forgot!
It's my sisters b day and I had promised to go out for lunch!
Grr.
Tomorrow it is then!
Can I ask...do most of you fast consecutively or on alternate days?
Which gives the best weight loss?
Is one easier to do than the other? Mentally I mean...

mrswhiskers that dinner sounds lovely - i'll give that a try too. I presume the 0.6 cals per gram is cooked weight? I take it you worked that out from the entire recipe calorie count? What is that? (Then I can work it out per portion!)

MrsSteven that's great, well done! I seem perpetually stuck at 10st 13lbs at the moment, which is 4lbs up from where I was a month or so ago. I suspect it's to do with lack of mfp'ing. Must get back to that
Anyway, as start of week was very social and DH is still away I'm fasting on a Friday for the first time ever! Planning a long bubble bath tonight instead of the usual wine and chocolate, to keep me on the straight and narrow.

stripy that's not a bad idea. I haven't ventured into quinoa land yet but I do quite like things like peppers roasted and cold would be fine. With the quinoa it might be quite filling.

I think measuring will be key. My idea of a portion can be quite off but if I make it up on Sunday and do a few portions that could work. I imagine I could freeze it too?

Nuts could work but I'm not very disciplined around nuts. If there's an open pack I would probably dip in during the evening so they're a bit dangerous.

But veg and quinoa I shall try. Thanks!

Aarghh I am currently working through a bag of tortilla crisps! someone tell me to stop! fd yesterday was fine but I'm so hungry today.ive had a bowl of muesli, poached egg with 1 slice of wholemeal bread, raw carrot, few nuts and sunflower seeds and now for some stupid reason opened bag of these! I blame the babysitter for not eating them on Wednesday! don't know why I'm like this but my will power is zero today.not even totm.

mrswhiskers love the look of your Dahl too. Would you say that whole recipe is about 1200g and so 750 calories Roughly. So 2 meals maybe?

Apples I love red peppers and cherry tomatoes roasted with chilli flakes in some rapeseed oil. I sometimes have cottage cheese with my veg and quinoa too.

There are some good lunch box ideas on Deliciously Ella blog. But do count calories of course. deliciouslyella.com/healthy-eating-on-the-go/

Each peach, step away, get out of the house if you can. Drink a pint of water. Clean your teeth. Distract yourself and keep out of the kitchen!

Thanks for the flowers and the tips BigChoc I will take your advice on cracking the snack habit before tackling the other areas needing improvement.

For anyone (like me) who didn't get on with MFP, I still kept/keep a daily record of my calories. I just write it all down on a scrap of paper from the recycling box. It does mean that I don't have a permanent record of it but on a daily basis I know exactly where I am. Something about having to write it down helps too. Seeing 300+ cals wasted on snacks brings home the silliness of it.

I thought of another bonus of this WOE. I spent a few hundred pounds at Slimming World on membership/magazines/SW snack bars. This diet has saved me money!

dotty yes 0.6 is the cooked calorie weight.
I weighed each ingredient to get a total calorie value then weighed the finished product to work it out as it wasn't on the recipe.
The finished weight was around 1200g (just under) so I thought I'd get 6 200g portions from that at 120-odd calories each.

I really like the sound of the dahl too (though I'd probably use different spice as I'm not keen on cumin), and having it worked out calories per gram appeals to me - I hate MFP'ing but if someone else has worked it out so well that's great! One question - was that low fat or full fat coconut milk?

Ah, brilliant, thanks Mrswhiskers

Just checked the tin errol it was full fat coconut milk

Thanks - I've only got the low-fat in, but that means I could use a little more oil to fry the onions and spices and still be in the right ballpark. I fancy this for (NFD) lunch tomorrow.

PS - if you haven't already, please do put this on the recipe thread for our future delectation!

That's great to be below your original goal, MrsW provided you feel and look ok like this. It also gives you a buffer for holidays and celebrations.
The few other folk who overshot their goal were quite happy; they just hadn't realised the lower goal was possible.

baddz Most folk do non-consecutive FDs, because they find it easier. Michael Mosely did the same. A few folk prefer consecutive.
Whichever you prefer, because the best system is the one that is sustainable for you week after week. imo, you should get used to fasting before attempting consecutive ones.

Peach I suggest in future you make / buy proper meals for NFDs.
What you have described is just grazing, which often makes people hungry and unsatisfied - your insulin levels are raised all the time and it's not very nutritious food either.
People who graze successfully are eating raw carrots, celery etc (NOT fruit) through the day. So their grazing is v low cal & low GI totally different to your grazing.

Hello everyone! Tired wave

Went a bit over on Tuesday's fast as got seduced by DP's samosa. Not a big deal though. Wednesday was quite sensible NFD, no snacking, I did have a magnum for pud though

Yesterday was a disaster, lots of sweet stuff... I'll try to be more sensible for the rest of the week!

Today's fast is going very well, I only had 2 teas with milk so far, and water. Not remotely hungry. Yet.

Can I ask if complex carbs ok on a FD? I should I avoid carbs altogether?