5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks BigChoc. I do weigh daily, and so I'm aware that my body can fluctuate wildly - my record is 5lb! However I try to take it in my stride and only record the reading I get after my 2 FDs are complete - that way I get as fair a comparison as possible I think.
Have a lovely day Dotty and well done on getting through yesterday!

Baddz Those days sound fine, really whatever suit you.
Definitely an FD with the dental appointment; I hope nothing too gruesome there
< gulp, dentist-phobe here >

It's personal choice on vacation whether you continue fasting and just decide it's not a foodie holiday, or try to minimise gain, or just have a complete break.

Tactics to reduce holiday gain:
. NO snacks between meals I recommend this habit even if you ignore everything else.
That means no bar nibbles - eat meals only
. 16:8, skipping breakfast or supper to reduce the eating window, so have 2 good meals, no snacks
. Eat what you want only at supper - skip breakfast and lunch, or just protein & low carb salad lunch with vinaigrette dressing.
. stick to 1 glass wine per day
. no sweet treats, save all calories for the savoury, coffee instead of pud

Huge filling....was in a lot of pain after the last one so am sure I won't feel like eating!.,

Can we talk about goal weight setting please? Looks like most of you are aiming for a BMI of under 20?

The goal I have in mind is somewhere in the middle of the healthy weight range for my height and would give me a BMI of 21.4. It's also about the lowest weight I've been as an adult.

< waves to Dotty >
Bubble bath is a great FD treat. On FDs I try to pamper my body, with extra skincare, nails, feet etc and maybe massages. I use the time saved preparing & eating food. FDs can be luxurious and exhilarating.

Stripy

My current BMI is 25.5 and my goal weight is 22. something! I would not have been this weight since I was early twenties so hope I get there!

Weighed in today-WEEK 1 (2 FD)

Was 11.6
Now 11.4
Yet to do measurements but FEEL SLIMMER!

Stripy BMI 20 is not the typical goal here and would be unsuitable for many folk.
Goal weight is very individual and depends on frame size, body shape, muscle etc. It should be what you can maintain sustainably.

Far more important is to aim for waist within half your height

I like to stay mid-range BMI because I am very muscular and would feel weak and ill at BMI 21 or below.
An ectomorph marathon runner could be best below BMI 20
Those of Asian or Afro-Caribbean origin are usually recommended to stay within BMI 22, because their fat storage tends to be different.

Healthy Weight Range, Frame Sizes
Wide healthy ranges, see this chart

To check frame size:
Wrap your thumb and middle finger around the smallest part of your wrist. If they overlap, you are small framed. If they touch, you are medium-framed. If there is a gap, then large-framed

If you have a lot of muscle, aim for the upper limit of your range, even go up a frame size

FDs are great! It's so nice not to have to prepare dinners and I don't need to get up as early so I can have a lie in

FD successful yesterday and I worked through my dinner and had a very productive day!

Thanks BigChoc. I was surprised the NHS BMI calculator also gives a huge healthy range for my height - all the way from 47.4kg to 64.3kg. Can't imagine how small the lowest point of the range would look, I don't think I've ever been under 50kg at this height even as a teenager but then I've never been thin even as a child.

That wrist test puts me at medium frame which makes sense.
I'm mostly an hourglass shape with defined waist and big bust and big hips.

confused Good luck for the run, I'm going to start running/jogging again today as well. Planning to incorporate some HIIT bursts to it after finally reading Mosley's Fast Exercise book this week.

Morning all. This thread moves so quickly. I'm in awe of some of the weight losses that have been posted.

I really hope that I get there, and fingers crossed I'm on my way to a proper SV on Monday. Due to the massive weight fluctuations during the week I'm trying to weight daily and use happy scale to show the trend. When I stated 4 weeks ago I was 176.6lb and am logging my weight on a Monday, despite showing losses after fast days I had only lost 2lbs in total last Monday weighing 174.5.

This week my weight as continued to drop even after my NFDs and am currently 168!! So if I'm good this weekend, I may manage to keep at this weight until Monday!

I also measured myself and my waist is now 35.5! I've lost 1.5 inches, and I've lost 1 off my hips.

I really want to get to a decent weight. 2 stone to go in an ideal world, but let's see how we go...

NSV! Just had to do my belt up an extra notch cos my jeans were slipping down!! Woop woop!!

NSV! Just had to do my belt up an extra notch cos my jeans were slipping down!! Woop woop!!

Feels that good, does it, Elsa?

"New notch, New notch! So good I had to post it twice!" Sung to the tune of New York, New York.

Great stuff! I gained 5 new belt notches on my way down to my maintenance weight of around/just under 9 and a half stone.

Which brings me to your weight/height guide, BC. I can't quite get my finger and thumb to meet around my wrist - so I take it I'm a medium frame. However, the guide says I should be 10.5 stone - which is not far short of the weight I carried before I started - when I had a sad case of middle-age spread!

well done Elsa, sooo nice when that happens!

Stripy, I am aiming for a rather low BMI because I have been maintaining that weight with no difficulty since my late teens, outside of my pregnancies. I am tall (5'10"), small framed, decisively not curvy, and I inherited DM's metabolism and eating habits; she used to be underweight until her mid-thirties. I am also not hugely muscular, though much less wobbly through regular yoga practice. For me, IF is a way to get back to normal from the food frenzy that was my last pregnancy (24kgs/4st in 9months and only a stone of that was DD/waters/placenta).

hi everyone. congratulations on your NSV elsa
I'm struggling with cravings today. Have mfp all my food for the weekend and it's plenty but really craving bread and sweet things today. I've been eating more bread than usual and I think this has been the trigger. I'm not physically hungry. hoping I can get through the weekend without caving in. Even though I'm on maintenance and have a calorie deficit for the week of around 3000 I'm still finding it hard to let go of religiously staying in the green on mfp.

. Stripy, my BMI is btwn 23 and 24 at the mo (depending on whether I count that extra half inch of height! ) and honestly, I look really chubby at this weight. Not being 'dysmorphic'.. my oldest mate thought I was pregnant again. The wrist thing is interesting... my fingers overlap. So possibly I should aim for a lower BMI than twentyish, which is my current vague goal. tbh I just want to be lighter and healthier. My knees hurt. Also. I miss fitting into my favoyrite dresses, and I hate clothes shopping, so may as well slim down.

happy weight
is the one that you get to and feel that you look great, can be as active as you want and to get below it is blerdy hard work.
for me its 8st 12
I can get down to 8 st 7 - but start to look a bit scraggy
once I get up to 9st 4 I feel fat under my arms
so I aim for 9

BUT
its an incredibly individual thing : you've all seen how skinny my legs are - wheras somebody with bigger knees will immediately carry an extra 6lb in muscle no matter how lean they get
IYSWIM

Well done on your SV, Nocarbs

I always love the jeans falling down NSVs, Elsa
Even better when this doesn't happen in public < which naughty iPad keeps saying is pubic [smacks rude gadget] >

Well done on your inches NSV, Moo That indicates lost body fat and should help your shape.
Your NFDs in earlier weeks were probably above TDEE, hence slow loss, but I think you have got that under control now.
Just be patient, watch the NFDs and you'll reach your goal.

MrsWhiskers I suggest you cut out bread, baked goods and added sugar for a couple of weeks, to get those cravings under control.
Also swap white carbs for complex and don't exceed 2 fruit portions per day.

Are you eating enough protein ?
Boost your protein & healthy oils - e.g. More fish & eggs, add avocado, nuts, drizzle oil over roast veg or salad, have pesto, hummus.
Since you are now in maintenance, you can safely increase calories, but they need to be the correct type.

B&W Checking up, those weight ranges are not suited to those aged 60+. From your photos and exercise routines, you are obviously in great shape.

Part of the aging process is to lose lean mass & bone density and gain fat every decade, unless we improve nutrition and boost exercise. Fat weighs less than the same volume of muscle, so weight tends downwards after age 55 in men, see chart (happens much later in women, due to menopause) See chart.

Your body composition before 5:2 was nowhere near as good as it is now. I'm sure you have lost a lot of fat, much of which was formerly around your middle. The exercise will also have burned a lot of visceral fat.

As always, weight is such a crude measure, when what is really important is body composition. Even that though, is to some extent age-dependent.

MrsW, I used to eat an enormous amount of bread - including a spicy fruit naan for breakfast - and 100g bread roll for lunch.

Gradually, I've cut out breakfast altogether, and I now have one slice of bread (about 40g) at lunchtime. Apart from my weekly pizza and the odd Chelsea bun, that's about it.

Similarly, once I became aware of how much rice and pasta I could get away with, I've cut my portion size down from around 75g to 40-50g. Even my curried potato wedges, of which I'm inordinately fond, I've reduced to 3 rather than 4.

But none of this was done overnight, it's just been a case of trimming a little here and a little there.

While I'm on the subject of cutting down, I used to have a medium glass of wine with my dinner - about 150ml plus I guess. But I realised the wine was disappearing without me registering it - so I started cutting the wine down and savouring each sip. Now I can still have a sip or two left even if I only start with about 50g in the glass. I have been known to pour this back in the bottle - but only occasionally!

Maintenance is a state of mind, really. It took me a little time to adjust to just one day's fasting per week, and I probably went a bit overboard at first. But things should settle down quickly and you'll find a routine that suits you.

BTW, don't expect to remain at a certain weight - if you're like me, you'll go up and down 2, 3 or even 4lbs. But as long as you touch your goal once a week, you'll be fine. As a bloke I wear the same belt every day, and I can tell in a second whether I need to rein in my sybaritic desires or not.

See you over on the Maintainer's thread!

Wow, that was a quick cross-post!

You are, good, BC! Thanks!

I knew there'd be a good explanation. So, at my weight of around 133lbs, I'd be at the 10th percentile. I'm happy with that.

But he (Dr Halls, that is, for it's his chart - for new readers) says:
"Now research has proved that men and women who gained weight into the BMI of 25 to 30 range when they reach age 50, are healthiest with the longest lives."

Without mentioning any other parameters - such as level of activity, etc.

(Thought I'd better include the link, or everyone else will be confused.)

B&W That research (lower risk of death for BMI 25-30 in middle age or older) is still very controversial among scientists, because the public may hear "overweight is better" without understanding when it may apply:

A young overweight adult will suffer cumulative health damage over decades and also is likely to increase BMI to well above 30, which has high risks.

Possibly why becoming overweight may help older folk:

. Some of those who were more susceptible to diseases associated with overweight have already died
. Those of lower BMi have lost more muscle & bone mass than is usual for their age. Higher % lean mass is healthier for all ages
. That age range is more likely to have serious diseases when they can't eat much, so need a reserve of fat
. Negative effects of overweight won't have years to accumulate.

Morning all, it's 8.40 and I have been for a run before breakfast, unheard of for me, I always went running 2 hours after breakfast, but I feel great, endorphins must have kicked in.

I weighed myself yesterday, and in one week since starting I have lost 5lb and so pleased that I am safely under the 14 stone mark now

Today I am taking dd and 3 of her friends to an indoor climbing play area: climbing walls, jumps etc. I said to a work colleague on Friday that we should also try it as they do adults sessions as well.

bigchoc great ideas on how to stave off holiday weight gain, and a few pages ago you mentioned about the body starting to adjust to how much food it needs, I need to slow down when eating.

elsa great news about the notches, even after a week there is less overhang over my belt!

stripy good luck with your running, and to all other runners out there.

Hello all,

Starting this tomorrow. My BMI is 27.4 and aiming for below 25 as a starting aim. I have tried SW, MFP etc but ultimately failed mainly because I love food too much! I have ended up very anxious around food and hope that this way, I will only stress about food 2 days a week and not 7. I want to start enjoying cooking, baking and eating again!

I'm going to try my first fast day tomorrow. I'll use MFP to track the calories and will plan tonight what I will eat and when. One question though; I have calculated my TDEE and it is over 2400 (mainly due to my height, I am female but 6ft tall); do I therefore aim for 600 cals on FD not 500?
Thanks!