5:2 Thread number 51: Whoever said "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" obviously never tasted ice cream or chocolate ! 5:2 is for those who enjoy good food and don't want to diet every damn day

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLomgo , and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Has anyone plateaued, and how do I kick start my loss.

I have been F since January and it has been slow progress which I am happy with, I am within normal BMI and probably only wanted to lose 1 stone, I have lost 7lbs to date so really pleased. However, for the last three weeks after fast day I weigh in 9st 7 every week, which was yesterday this week. Out of interest I weighed again this morning and I am 9st 9.8. I had a reasonable day yesterday, ate well and only had a very small slice of homemade cake as a treat.

DH suggested I eat a bit more on non fast days to encourage my metabolism to kick in. I exercise a couple of times a week and I also walk dogs twice a day and I really go for it out of breath and take in hills. I know it isn't a huge amount to lose but I have a wardrobe of clothes that don't fit as this stone was put on quite swiftly.

Well done mrswhiskers :) it does seem to just keep getting easier as you get used to it!

To add to my previous post it turns out I've lost 2.5lbs this week so I'm extremely happy with that as a start to my weight loss! Happy happy happy :)

Thanks, all. I'm a bit curious about the protein thing. I watched the first half of the Horizon documentary (not yet had the time to watch the rest) and there seemed to be the suggestion that you should cut down on protein to cut risks of certain cancers and so on. Perhaps this addressed later on in the documentary.

FD here today, y'terdayand NFD went well, kept on the straight and narrow....well done hippy on your weight loss,

mildly I tend not to eat breakfast after a FD as I don't feel hungry but would have a protein lunch like scrambled eggs with a slice of wholemeal break and some homous, or an egg salad....makes me feel so much fuller. I find too when I up my protein I'm not craving sugary foods or want to snack...

splat welcome back, glad to hear your break went well and you enjoyed...2lbs on isnt bad at all, I can put that on over a weekend at home

vvviola hope the sleep training is going well, it can be hard going, my dd3 decided at half 2 this morning that it was time to get up!!! Took her until nearly 4 to get to sleep again, so I'm a bit zombied today, could end up nodding off during my Jillian Michaels workout!

elsa that's great your up to 4k on the threadmil, I find it's harder on the threadmil than outside, there's very little distraction, watching materchef is a good idea, I'm like that with the great British bake off, if I sit to watch it I nearly find it's compulsory to have & !!!

Good luck today fasters...

Morning all, well done to the fasters from yesterday and good luck to those fasting today.
Welcome Minus Well done on your loss so far and long may it continue.

Thanks Donkeys I'll make sure to keep on with the strengthening. Good news that you're able to run again too.

I'm yet to try an actual 500 cal FD - I don't know what the hell it's called what I'm doing, it's not quite 16:8, but I eat dinner only every day - normally consists of meat, fish or eggs with veg or salad and if I have some carbs then they're limited to a few potatoes or a few spoons of rice. Roughly one hour later I'll have some yogurt and/or fruit if I fancy then that's it - so I have an eating window of around 3 hours. It was stress that made me start to eat like this but it feels natural to continue..... I might get peckish somewhere from late afternoon to early evening but don't want to eat anything then as I know I then won't be able to eat my dinner, so I normally have a big jug of herbal tea.
It's working! I jumped on the scales this morning out of curiosity and I'm another 1 kilo down (3 now in total) - very strange as it's my TOTM and my weight goes up by at least few lbs. Didn't measure yet - I'll wait to do that later as I know I'm quite bloated.

Carbe - well, sounds like you're '21:3'. AFAIK if you're doing that sort of IF, the shorter the eating window the better. 16:8 is popular I think because people find it quite easy to manage - a WOE is only effective if it's sustainable. Sounds like you've hit on something that works for you, which is great.

carbe what you are doing sounds like how I used to eat before I put on weight and it worked for me. I ate what I wanted and maintained my weight. admittedly I smoked at the time and was a complete caffeine junkie

it was when I started eating more regularly that I seemed to be unable to lose weight.

Errol I hope it will continue to be sustainable - still have a bit of nervous energy getting me through at the moment (until we get mums results) which is affecting my appetite so it could still be that but on days I'm not consciously aware of stressing I still feel okay eating this way.

admittedly I smoked at the time and was a complete caffeine junkie
Meet your mate Mrswhiskers The caffeine part I'm okay with - have cut down to 2/3 cups on a morning and possibly one somewhere during the day but it's only instant - fresh/ground blows my head off these days. I quit smoking last year - 4 weeks. This is where a part of my weight gain came from - I'm not joking I was very careful what I substituted cigs for and didn't reach for junk but I still jumped up by half a stone - it wasn't even that reason why I started again. It was what it done to my digestion - slowed it right down and couldn't 'go' that pushed me over the edge and I'm still smoking, albeit, a lot less.

Morning all. It's really interesting to read that people are making all sorts of healthier choices - it seems be easier to do that when you're giving your body what it needs.

Carbe I'm so thrilled to be running again, I honestly thought it was all over. I just had to do the physio hours and I think it took a while for the penny to drop - physio can make you stronger.

Elsa Well done for the treadmill distance. Have you ever seen Jessica Smith's videos? She does a lot of indoor walking and jogging stuff. I think her videos are a big part of me being strong enough to run again.

So, last two days were first FDs. I felt a bit hungry this morning and enjoyed breakfast, but my body feels exactly as would any day of the week. I keep getting short bursts of, "I can eat anything I want today," but so far nothing's really come to mind. I want to give my low-carb diet a great big hug because I think that's really laid the groundwork.

Well done on your SV, Hippy

Patter As you are already within the healthy BMI range, you will need to be much stricter than most folk to break a plateau and continue losing.

Try to add some HIIT. to rev up fat-burning. This could be a gym class, or just rope skipping or sprint intervals outside.

Don't eat back your estimated exercise calories on the exercise day, even if you have a fitness gadget, because they tend to overestimate. Instead, set the activity level for your TDEE, so you have an average target.

Check the activity definitions in the TDEE calculator, because many folk over-estimate their level, e.g. very active is 6-7 days with a very tough workout, not a walk. Then
Calculate your TDEE and then mfp for a week, to check you are not exceeding it on NFDs.

If you find you are averaging about this TDEE on NFDs, then recalculate for sedentary or lower your target 15% for 2 weeks.

2nd fast day here too. v busy day so hopefully it'll be easier than Monday's. Good luck everyone fasting today!

Carbe You are doing the Warrior Diet. The theory is that this is how hunters lived 10,000+ years ago.
Well, we don't have a lot of evidence from then, but current evidence is that it works for some folk, because for them it results in a daily calorie deficit (it is possible to exceed a low TDEE even in 1 hr, so not foolproof)

mildlyacquiescent The lower protein is during fasting, which most folk manage because 500 cals with plenty of veg automatically cuts down protein compared to the typcial consumption.
There is evidence that substantially cutting down red meat is beneficial longterm, but protein from fish or legumes etc looks fine.
Replacing protein by white carbs might be less healthy; increasing sugary junk obviously would be.

The original Horizon program was motivated by healthy aging longterm, not specifically weight loss - because Mosely was only just overweight.
However, the first aim in healthy aging is to achieve your goal weight with whatever protein level makes the calorie deficit sustainable, then to maintain.
Once this is achieved, one could consider further improving the nutrition content, e.g. going Mediteranean, vegan, whatever you wish.

Realised I've nearly fallen off these threads.
Must get back into cheerleader / drill sargeant mode
except that there are lots of really experienced fasters now who work with BigChoc to support newcomers.

I'm pretty much doing 16:8 5 days a week rather than actual fasting due to work commitments and the miserable weather
and probably won't get down to ideal weight in time for my Birthday
but Hey!
its only a number.

The possible health benefits from saving your 500 cals for supper are probably partly due to 20+ hours without protein or sugar, so hormesis can really kick in.

FWIW I watched the Giles Coren thing about living for ever last night
the American Couple who calorie restrict - sorry but they looked ill and potbellied to me.

Our way is much more fun.

So I'm a warrior Haha! I think I remember you told me that before Big my memory is shocking :)
it is possible to exceed a low TDEE even in 1 hr Hell yes! So true, I'm quite shamefully confident I could do it in less than half that time if I was in previous emotional eating mode

Do stay with us TIP all tips, help and advice is very much appreciated and needed.
I've certainly learned my lesson with constant forced calorie restriction - it's miserable, boring and so soul destroying, it just sucks the joy out of life when everything revolves around calories.

2nd FD today and I have another fecking cold... Was considering not fasting today, but I think I'll stick to it. Had my morning tea, and now having hot water with lemon. Will head to bed after this. Not feeling particularly hungry, which helps, and if I do, it goes away very quickly.

Good luck everyone

Morning all. Second FD here and Carrot I have a cold too. Lemon and ginger tea seems to be helping. I find going all the way to supper with no food doesn't work for me on FDs esp as I usually get to 8pm before I'm actually eating so I do 200 cal for lunch and 300 for supper. I wish I could save them all for the evening though!

BigChoc, Thank you for the info about protein. I don't eat meat (can't call myself a veggie, though, as my food is cooked alongside the family's so often in meat juices) and do struggle to eat huge amounts of protein.

Exercised before breaking my fast today and tired more easily, I thought... but that could be attributable to the toddler waking me up at 2am.

Am enjoying the NFD a bit too much, but am shocked to be only craving healthy stuff so far.

Handmini
Learning to go all day without food takes time.
Don't beat yourself up EVER about it.
When I'm working in places where other people eat lunch, I often take a couple of carrots chopped into 8 and munch on them at lunchtime.
It takes me about 20 minutes to eat 75 calories
so my brain thinks I've eaten, my colleagues think I've eaten, but my spare tyre knows better

Mainlining hot drinks is essential on fast days I find

Yup, echo that we still need and value you, and your straight talking, on these threads TIP

Yesterday was my day of meetings in London and the Train Snack Monster got the better of me (though some of my snacking was a nice salad and a yoghurt so not all awful).
Thank goodness today is a FD though the tummy is growling horribly already. Going to distract myself with ironing and some tv I've recorded

FD for me today also. I'm finding them quite easy now I've gotten past the headaches - I only ever breakfast when I'm in a hotel, so I'm not "missing" anything there, and Netflix on the phone gets me through lunchtime at work without thinking of food. Leaves me all my calories for my evening meal (so at least I can eat something semi-substantial with DW & DD, even if it's a meal prepared separately). My Achilles' heel will be tomorrow and snacks. That said, since I'm finding the fasting days relatively easy, there's no reason I can't manage a light lunch at work and then a proper evening meal on NFDs.
I feel for those with colds - all I want to do when full of cold is constantly feed my face!

so its supposed to be lunchtime but I'm not hungry at all so going to hold off for longer. I feel quite energised and plan to do 30 day shred level 3 shortly.
I didn't even feel tempted whilst making jam sandwiches for DC!

FD here and it's going OK. Still haven't managed to go all day without food but I have a few 150 cal options to have at lunch then some kind of veg stew for dinner which seems to work. NFDs work OK when I micro plan them but still find it quite easy to go overboard. I'm gradually upgrading carbs to wholegrain and reducing portion sizes. My biggest stumbling blocks are choc, cakes and puddings ( and wine). I only developed a sweet tooth since my second pregnancy but it is a hard habit to break. So TIP and others please keep up the support/ drill sergeant stuff it really is appreciated

Still here. Just. Mothersday and birthday have intervened and pushed me fairly and squarely off kilter. FD for me today - need to distract myself.