5:2 Thread number 51: Whoever said "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" obviously never tasted ice cream or chocolate ! 5:2 is for those who enjoy good food and don't want to diet every damn day

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLomgo , and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Elsa I don't at the moment,no but will keep that in mind thanks. We live in an apartment here so don't even have much space to add to our 'home' gym.

I'm having a huge bowl of mixed veg, works out at about 20 cals per 100g.
Good luck to all Wednesday fasters. Lovely and sunny here

Elsa A mini-FD is below 1000 cals

Carbe If your knees are ok, I recommend deep bodyweight squats and lunges

Jimmy Many factors explain why there is such a wide range of healthy weights for different heights:

Where fat is stored is highly individual, related to both genetics and diet, also age.
Those ethnically Asian or African are more likely to store fat around the internal organs, hence may need to aim for a lower BMI than Caucasians - BMI 22 is often quoted. However, even that is a very broad generalisation.

Fat stored in legs and bum is nowhere near as harmful as around the waist - in fact it may be protective post-meno and beyond.
It is advisable to try to maintain a healthy weight when young, because the negative effects are cummulative over the years - as is weight gain.

Today is a NFD for me and planning a FD tomorrow. I will be having 2 coffees around 7am tomorrow so should I have the last of my food at 3pm today in order to have the 16 hours with nothing at all?

Yesterday was my first FD and today I've found I just don't feel like eating so much and feel full after eating less which is great!

Hi everyone. Have just caught up with the thread after a week away with DH and the DDs.

It was disastrous food wise. Loads of bread, pizza, a fair bit of alcohol. And I felt terribly bloated and grumpy which kind of spoiled the holiday a bit. But DH is very supportive so I'm back on a FD today. "Only" put on 2 lbs which was a relief but it was TOTM when I last weighed so I've probably put on a little more than that. Anyway, seeing the positives, I hated how I felt so am determined. The problem was that we were stuck in the accommodation when children were asleep with limited entertainment (no wifi!!!!) so eating was a focus of each evening.

One problem is that DD2 is 4 months so I'm out of my maternity clothes but my normal clothes are tight so a constant reminder of how I feel.

But feeling positive today.

It's after 4pm where I am and it's a FD. No food yet (but two coffees with some low-fat milk). I did Jillian Michaels's "Banish Fat, Boost Metabolism" on an empty stomach for once and found it easier than usual. Still not hungry- but my biggest test (the post-9pm eating binge) is still ahead of me; wish me luck!

Good luck to all the other Wednesday fasters!

mildlyacquiescent As soon as you have had your last planned meal:
get up, have a big drink of water, then clean your teeth and rinse with mouthwash.
Don't sit and have a rest before doing this, or you may be mugged by a lurking piece of cake.

Just had my FD lunch - a new spicy Thai soup, which was utterly delicious. I suspect I'll have it with a salad or something on NFDs too.

Problem is, it was so nice, and only 60cals, so I'm tempted to have another one (especially as I'm still very hungry). I might try to push it til about 4pm and if I still really want one I can have it then, which will help me get through to dinner time which - if the past few nights of fighting with the DC over bedtime is anything to go by - will be about 9pm.

Thanks Big - squats I like and do them now along with some KB one and two leg dead lifts, I'll throw in some more and add some lunges too.

BigChoc

First FD went very well - so well that we're trying another one today. I am hungry, but low-carbing seems to have stopped that being a stressful thing, it's as if my body says, "Bit low on food, sort it out when you've got some spare time," whereas when I ate carbs it would be, "Oh my God, panic, eat some fruit, cake, chocolate, biscuits, where are the biscuits?" So hunger's fine.

I exercised on my first FD - it was something to do around lunchtime and I'm never that hungry after running (mainly because I'm tired and feel a bit sick and just want to sit down). Carbe if you enjoy running, then there must be a way to carry on. I use music and sort it by BPM, that really helps, you can't go too slow or too fast because the beat is there in the background.

I'm reading what people are saying about BMI and fat stores - it's very interesting. When I lost my first stone I looked completely different, it was very easy to tell that I'd lost weight. The second stone barely made a difference at all, so I think that might have been visceral fat. I'd love to know if my internal organs fit better inside the way my jeans did outside .

Carbe - the other thing you might consider throwing into the mix is some balancing-on-one-leg stuff - it's good for building up the stabilising muscles which I believe can help prevent joint problems, but can be quite gentle.

I'm certainly going to try to carry on Donkeys.

Thanks Errol I do that with the one leg kettlebell dead lifts - weirdly my left leg is stronger than my right (I'm RH and have a general weakness on my left because of my problems with my spine/nerves)
So far my joints feel okay hopefully my weight will continue to decrease and it'll make a big difference to my comfort level when jogging.

Afternoon all, thought I'd chip in a few thoughts on my first month or so on 5:2.
Background, I'm male, bit of a short-arse at 5'7, and was hovering just over 12st. So, technically overweight, but actually fit and healthy and physically active (I didn't/don't look 12st, but certainly have a layer to shed above the abs).
Purpose behind the diet is to vanquish the gut for good, for although I do exercise plenty, I was shooting myself in the foot by eating crap.
Four weeks in and I'm at one or one and a half lbs a week down, which is nice, but not ideal - I tend to have a habit of slightly overdoing it the day after a fasting day - I'm almost on a 2:2:3! ;-)
Plenty here in the thread about BMI, and it's (none?) relevance. At my last "weigh in", I was 11st 11, so a BMI of 25.8 on the NHS calculator - so technically, still just overweight (though I don't think I look it, and work trousers noticeably looser).
Target is sub 11st (ideally 10st 7), which would give a BMI of 24 (11st) or 23 (10st 7) - either of which are still top end of "healthy", which is why I think BMI is not necessarily that relevant in certain circumstances.
First couple of weeks I had bad headaches on fasting days, which I gather is quite common? These have abated recently - I've increased my water intake, and it may also be a little bit of my body getting used to a new regime.
Exercise is karate three times a week, and hiit tabatta (concentrating on core and chest / shoulders) on non-karate days. Food on fasting days trends to be almost all protein (one of my FDs falls on a training day).
Plan is (obviously) stop having that effects bag of monster munch following a FD, and hopefully ramp up to a 1.5 - 2 lb a week loss.
Following the thread with interest - good luck everyone with your continued weight loss.

Carbe I've got some joint problems. I found out that I've got arthritis in one of my knees last August, so I went into physio mode. I spent six months doing tons of strength exercises and I only started running again in February, so I can very much recommend strengthening for running.

It's almost dinner time! DH is making something with salmon and cauliflower and I'm looking forward to it hugely. Nearly as much as I'm looking forward to breakfast tomorrow as our normal breakfast is about 700 calories.

Welcome, Minus As a bloke, you'll probably lose fat more quickly than we women do

You're also able to build much more muscle, if you add some weightlifting say twice weekly - heavy weights, not like a pump class.
That could mean your body composition and shape improve dramatically - low % fat, high % muscle - even if your weight doesn't drop a lot.
So, I recommend you monitor your waist measurement, also how heavy you can lift. If you've no weights available, then pressups, pullups and deep bodyweight squats would be great exercises for you.

btw, a teasp of Marmite (10 cals) straight from the jar can help avoid headaches. Alternatively a tbsp of unsweetened soya sauce (10 cals too)

Just waiting for DC to go to sleep so I can settle down for dinner. Am semi-sleep training DD2 (she won't go asleep without me, so am doing gradual withdrawal) which is a bit tricky when I'm a bit ratty from being hungry!

I had the second soup at about 4, so that took the edge off my hunger and still leaves me about 350 cals to play with tonight (and that's if I wildly overestimate the splash of milk I put in my coffee at tea break time). So looking good for staying on track today.

Good luck vvv - you need to have your head in the right place and calm to deal with 'gradual withdrawal', don't you?

It's after 11pm on a FD and I have eaten my 421-calorie meal (calculated to the last kidney bean!) and am sipping a cup of herbal tea before bed. Feel fine, but Minus's post has made me realise that it'll have all been no use if I overcompensate tomorrow. Any tips for not overdoing it on NFDs?

vvviola, my sympathies! I am crap with DD if I'm hangry. I am planning fast days around days when I am at work for that reason- let my colleagues deal with any snippiness. :)

Mildlyacquiescent Start the NFD with a high-protein breakfast and allow yourself some fat e.g. Veg omelette or scrambled eggs / mackerel / peanut butter on wholegrain buttered toast
Avoid carby breakfast cereals & juice.
Avoid sweet junk & crisps throughout the day and make this a no-alcohol day.
Try to swap white carbs for complex ones, e.g. quinoa or brown rice instead of white rice & pasta.

Many folk 16:8 on NFDs, but that may be too tough if you are still getting used to fasting.

Kitchen closed and heading for bed.

Bedtime went ok (sitting on her sister's bed instead of hers) and then I had my nice big bowl of veg with a teeny bit of meat. Then DH handed me a chocolate bar... which I promptly put back in the fridge. I can have it (or some of it) tomorrow :)

Mildly - you may find that you don't feel particularly hungry tomorrow morning, if that is the case then don't eat till you do (and then follow BC's advice, proteins rather than carby)

Morning all :) just wanted to interject that since I started this 16:8 thing DS's 6.30am wake ups don't feel nearly as hard! Feel much more alert. Its only up from here :)

Just starting FD number 2. had dinner at 3pm yesterday so have gone 16 hours with nothing and feel fine, not hungry at all.
I tend to find the later I eat in the evening the hungrier I am the next morning.
Feeling positive about the day ahead.