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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

999 replies

BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 31/12/2013 01:51

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Fasted training, i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF, but it is advisable to first become used to fasting

Exercise alone does not produce significant weight loss for most people. However it can improve body shape and can help overcome weight plateaux.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart diesease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

  • Try to train regularly, building up to 3-6 days per week.
  • Develop a training routine you enjoy and want to continue long term.
  • Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve" BendAge

WARNING: If you are very obese or have health issues, check with your GP that you are able to start exercising and also if there are types of exercise you should avoid.

Fat and Metabolism

Body fat is highly active tissue which secretes hormones (e.g. leptin, adiponectin) and microphages (which cause inflammation) directly into the bloodstream. These substances can significantly affect metabolism & weight and increase the risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, some cancers.
E.g ref and ref

Visceral fat is more dangerous than subcutaneous - a study found that liposuction removing up to 20lb of the latter did not improve health indicators. Visceral fat needs to be reduced by exercise and a calorie deficit, preferably both together.

Hormesis

"What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson and Hormesis can be applied to exercise, analagous to how 5:2 /IF uses it for nutrition.
Alternating between “extremes” of feast and fast (like 5:2) or intense training and rest, makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is not necessary and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Only high intensity exercise recruits the fast-twitch muscle fibers that have the most glycogen (stored glucose). Steady State Cardio does not empty the glucose stores in those particular muscles. Hence, the circulating glucose has nowhere to be stored — except as bodyfat.

Moreover, the muscle cells will lose their sensitivity to insulin and become inflamed by the high levels of insulin, which the body has produced to deal with the high levels of circulating glucose. The body mortars this inflammation with LDL cholesterol.

Hence, those exercising only at low-medium intensity are at greater risk of cardiovascular problems than high intensity exercisers SteadyState (pp. 31-34).
Obviously, non-exercisers have the highest risk of all.

RECOMMENDED TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do a variety of training: HIIT cardio, resistance and flexibility.

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are inadequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.
However, 10 mins walk on a treadmill or outside is beneficial after training, especially after heavy lifting.
Scientists have proved that cardio and resistance training can be done in the same session, without detriment to either, e.g. TrainBoth

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

Flexibility

  • Stretching for 5 mins before and after each training session is recommended
  • Yoga and Pilates classes can be added if additional flexibility training is desired. Some such classes also provide additional strength / toning.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods. Time intervals may be equal or different and their length and the number of sets depends on fitness level.

Start with one session per week and build up to a maximum of 3 (no more).

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis). However, beginners should build up gradually, starting say with just 1 or 2 intervals.

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs
or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer classes, e.g.
spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)
which each use a form of interval training.
These classes require less planning and are often more enjoyable (music, socialising, equipment) than training on your own.

A typical HIIT session could consist of:

  • 4 mins warmup
  • 8 sets of intervals
  • 4 mins cooldown
and last 12-60 mins in total.

Recovery time is usually half the high intensity time.
Examples of typical interval sets are:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery OR
  • 40 sec high + 20 sec low OR
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low

Detailed HIIT example plans: (scroll down to Workouts section and ignore whether entitled "cutting" or "bulking") BodyBuild

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

This helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.

It is easier in a gym, especially re equipment. You can lift in the weights area on your own OR in a pump class.
Whether @ gym or home, before you start lifting, have a few lessons with a trainer to learn the correct form and avoid injury.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

WARNING
The "Heavy" lifting described here should not exceed bodyweight unless you are really fit and expert.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Main Lifting / Resistance Exercises

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests
E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups. Alternatively, use bodyweight.
squats
bent-over rows (press button "female")
Behind neckPress (press button "female")
dead lift
The abs and smaller muscle groups will automatically be trained by these exercises, but you can add optionally 20 mins weekly abs exercises:

Basic Abs

  • Situps: build up to 3 sets of 20 reps. Try to put your arms in front of you, instead of behind your head
  • Angled situps: with one ankle resting on the opposite knee. 2 sets of 15 each side
  • Plank: 3 sets, each 45 secs
  • Leg extensions: legs bent 90 degrees, so your lower legs are parallel to the floor. Stretch each leg in turn, parallel to the floor. 3 sets of 10.

Lifting To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets
e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

Lifting To Build More Muscle
With a lower weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

Additionally, or if you don't have heavy barbells, use your bodyweight.
Example to build up to:

  • 3 sets of 30 press ups, proper ones, see detail below +.
  • 40 deep squats, with thighs parallel to floor, i.e. ATG (Arse to Grass) see ++.
  • 3 set of 8 reps inverted pullup /row Inverted OR assisted chin-ups on a gym machine OR full chin-ups if you can manage them (Amazon have pullup bars which fit over doors from about £15)

+Press ups

  • It is best to keep attempting one proper pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms.

++Squats

  • Are the best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -For bodyweight squats, bring your arms forward -Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

CAUTION With Leangains-Type Protocols

5:2 is an easier WOL than other forms of IF, with most days being NFDs during which the body can recuperate.

Some women have had injuries or health problems with very tough LeanGains-type protocols, which combine ADF or daily 16:8 with fasted lifting of multiples of body weight.

Some women have achieved excellent results on LeanGains-type; others had problems after a few months, or even from the start. Particularly at risk are women with very low (11-18%) body fat, possibly already with irregular menstruation, or with EDs.

Post-menopausal women seem to do well, as do men, presumably due to differences in hormones, body fat %, metabolism.

RECOMMENDATION: Don't lift more than your bodyweight and mostly lift well below it.

Running versus Walking

Walking is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref . Typical values:

  • For running (5 mph and higher): Total calories burned per mile = .75 x body weight (in pounds); net calories (see ++) burned per mile = .63 x weight.
  • For walking (3 to 4 mph): Total calories burned per mile = .53 x body weight; net calories burned per mile = .30 x weight.

++ Note: net calories = total calories - cals the body would have burned at rest (calculated from BMR)

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

We start losing bone density from about age 35. Women can lose a great deal before, during and after menopause.

Other risk factors: Smoking, heavy drinking, inactive lifestyle, very slim build, family history of osteoporosis, longterm steroid use.

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight bearing exercises that load the bone along its length

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better than lunges: The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density as it does not really load bones along their length. A study found that cyclists who did no other exercise had low bone density because of the combo of this with their training Osteo

KETTLEBELLS

Useful exercise descriptions and videos: Kettle
Recommended for beginners (and shown in the link):
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

How to Choose a Gym (if you want to)

  • gym offpeak can be as cheap as £30 p.m. as you don't need expensive pools, sauna, juice bars, massage etc.
  • within journey time 20 mins
  • plenty of classes at times to suit you
  • creche if needed
  • don't bother with expense of a personal trainer.

Start with these classes if available:

  • weekly spin, because you can set your own resistance and speed 45-60 mins
  • any additional interval training class, see earlier for list.
  • weekly pump 60 mins
  • weekly abs class 15-30 mins

======================================

CALCULATORS:
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages:
HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

More links: 52FastDietForum-Fasting & Exercise 52exercise GettingStronger.Org-Hormesis Hormesis GettingStronger.Org-Fitness Fitness LeanGains Protocols : Leangains MarksDailyApple-Home Workouts Without Equipment WorkAtHome

OP posts:
Suzannewithaplan · 21/02/2014 23:22

True, I've been doing 20-30 mins hiit then 20-30 of SS, feels like the borders of overtraining to me on top of the weights, makes sense to drop the SS first!

BetsyBell · 22/02/2014 16:18

Oops. Accidentally ate a whole lot more junk than I meant to - maybe not in same league as junk-fests from previous times, but still enough to make me feel wonky and headachy.

Ploughing through the sugar crash by practising TKD kicking combinations but keep falling over when doing spin knife hand chop move! (on to sofa luckily). I'm pretty sure it's the combo of my now slightly sweaty feet on the horrible laminate floor.

Been doing some weights, squats, crunches and press ups too. Gotta use up that extra fuel!

Also watching The Karate Kid for inspirational purposes!

BetsyBell · 22/02/2014 16:25

I've put socks back on and now there's no falling over Grin

Note to self - if I ever build a dojo it must never NEVER have carppy laminate flooring!

TalkinPeace · 22/02/2014 16:29

had meant to do lots more of my vitamin d abs workout today (digging the veg garden)
but cricked a muscle in my shoulder during the night and cannot move my left arm or my head. hrruummpph - esp with the weather so nice

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2014 14:03

Betsy I slip in socks or tread on sharp nut shells Blush
I recommend those sock-like slip-ons with non-stick pad underneath. They also keep your feet warm when curled up on the sofa.
You are working hard for your grading; great to see the enthusiasm.
Smile

Breadandwine · 23/02/2014 16:25

Hi folks! Smile

Thanks for the links, BC and Wombles - have only read the first of yours, W, found it very informative – and I’ll catch the others when I can.

Been away for a few days, visiting Oscar and family – then overnight with MIL in Portsmouth. Last night I went out for some fish and chips – which involved a walk of about ¾ of a mile each way. I always walk at a fairly brisk pace (I want to get from A to B as quick as poss) but, as I’ve said before, walking is too slow for the amount of energy I’ve got these days. So every now and again I break into a trot or a jog for about 50-60 yards.

However, last night, inspired by all the talk of HIIT, instead of just jogging, I really went for it for 60 paces – walked for a further 100 paces, then repeated the flat out phase twice more. I was shot by the end of the third run, but once I’d recovered I felt pretty good. I did think of repeating this on the way back, but I wasn’t sure if that would have been beneficial or not. Thoughts on this, guys?

I’ve never been into running – tried it a few times back in the 80s and found I had a dodgy knee, so I switched to cycling for exercise. Now I’m wondering if my knee would stand up to several short dashes a few times a week. Hmm…

BTW, I’d like to put in a plug for the Deep Blue fish and chip shop in Southsea – best chips in the south of England! Grin

Have to say, as a vegan, slipping into 16:8 whilst out visiting relatives takes all the pressure off. It’s so much easier just to skip a few meals – plus you can eat heartily the rest of the time (not that I can over-indulge any more without discomfort!) Grin

BetsyBell · 23/02/2014 18:21

Feeling better helps with the enthusiasm bigchoc! Yay, no cold anymore (more or less anyway). I'm really working all the TKD moves now so even the fairly zen-like pattern forms work up a sweat. I've done a group training session today plus at least 8 miles of cycling so feeling pretty worked out.

I do love how much I can practise at home though, despite slippy floor - normal socks work fine, anything with grips will hinder the essential sliding c-steps.

Hope your cricked shoulder's worked itself out tip. Very frustrating.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2014 21:58

B&W Well done starting sprint intervals. You need to build up gradually, to let your CV-system and knees get into the swing. So, it was good not to overdo the first time.

3 intervals is plenty now. Over the next month, try to build up to 5 intervals on 2 days. You can increase speed too, but maybe more in month 2.
Just take it gradually, so you aren't knackered or nadgered.

Your knee joints should cope, unless you have have significant arthritis or similar.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2014 22:47

Build up to 5 sprint intervals (running or cycling) on 2 days p.w. I mean

ErrolTheDragon · 24/02/2014 10:50

When/if the towpath dries out enough to run on, I want to try some 'sprint' (ie as fast as I can which isn't very!) intervals - I was doing a bit of that last year. I think mixing up pace is something that's been recommended before people started talking about HIIT as such - google 'fartlek'.

Anyway, back on my routine - started RippedIn30 today, plus a selection of inclined press-ups and some side planks.

Boleh · 24/02/2014 13:30

BigChoc I have a confession, in fact I have two Blush

First is that I gave up my hunt for the XFit press-up description when I got back to page 18 on my phone - any chance that you could repost?

The 2nd is that it turns out that in my gym the weight plates are in kgs but the dumbells are in lbs! It explains why I was finding the dumbells so much easier but puts me firmly back in the girly weights camp Sad was actually really depressed to find that - must try harder I guess!

I did try a bit of HIIT on the rower this time but I think it takes a bit too long to ramp it up to max and wind down again for short intervals, will try with bike or outdoor sprints next time.

BetsyBell · 24/02/2014 15:29

boleh I c&p's the xfit press ups into my own doc so here you are:

New Pushups - Easier on Joints

My CrossFit and boxing classes now both do a different type of full pushup, probably because it is very easy on the joints. Don't know if they have a special name; our gyms here don't.

  • Lie face down on floor, with arms on the floor, palms down, bent 90 degrees at the elbow.
  • Push yourself up through your palms & toes, NOT using knees at all, to full pressup position
  • Lower yourself completely to the floor, again NOT using knees, so your bent arms palms are down on the floor again
  • Briefly raise your bent arms slightly above the floor and lower them again. (I raise my arms and slap them down again quickly so I can do 50 of these pressups quickly)
  • That is a pressup. Now rinse & repeat the desired number of times

In fact this is like an IF pressup, because you have a series of brief high loads alternating with brief recovery, instead of a continual high stress. These pressups are great -

ErrolTheDragon · 24/02/2014 15:34

I still can't visualise how those press-ups are meant to work. Confused

ErrolTheDragon · 24/02/2014 15:48

Boleh - you said on the other thread 5-12 dumbells ... but there's two of them, aren't there! The dumbells I've got range from truly girly purple 1.5kg (but even those are useful for some things - lots of reps of anterior raises in the shred for instance) up to 10lb-ers which way upthread BC decreed to be Not Girly. Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2014 22:05

Thanks, Betsy, you saved my entire post !
Flowers
Errol I thought I'd have to ask our resident hunk, B&W, to post a video of himself doing XFit press-ups for you. Then I found these

Non-Girly Lifting
I use barbells with up to 50 kg = 110 lb. I limit myself to this as I'm so chicken about avoiding internal injury.
Since Suzanne does full pull-ups (and is much braver !), I suspect she may lift quite a bit heavier than I do.

TalkinPeace · 24/02/2014 22:10

B&W
if you are back in Southsea in the next month, go have a look at Sabre Sales before it closes
and be wary of sprinting in Pompey, people might think you are running from somebody Wink

interestingly my gradual workout this morning was deffo the right thing to do : shoulder feels much better
desk day tomorrow

Suzannewithaplan · 24/02/2014 23:03

I dont have any across the board limits for weights Bigchoc, really it depends on the exercise/lift, for instance most people would use more squatting than for a military press.

I tend to go by rep range, if I can do less than 5-6 reps then I consider the weight to be too heavy for me. If I can do more than 12-15 then I recon it's too light Wink

Suzannewithaplan · 24/02/2014 23:13

Also smaller people have a power to weight advantage, I'm somewhat diminutive so it's easier for me to do pull ups compared to someone bigger/taller.

MazzleDazzle · 24/02/2014 23:17

BigChoc I know you've posted this before, but I've been scrolling through the thread and can't find it. Tell me again how can I nail press ups? I need a plan!

Breadandwine · 24/02/2014 23:48

BC!! I don't know how you do it! That could be me! Grin

That's exactly how I do it - except that the guy should slow down a little, he's going too fast! Grin

Sabre Sales TiP?

Not my style at all, thanks!

BigChocFrenzy · 25/02/2014 06:56

I have moved mostly to ATG squats now, with bum lower than knees, so I reduced my full squat weight a lot - I'm chicken about knees too.

However, on the leg press ( the only machine I use) I go up to 122.5 kg = 270 lb.
This machine is much easier on the knees, so I do sets of 30-50 calf "raises" and 20 partial squats. I won't go to a higher weight, because the initial move of the press from start position probably raises BP a lot already.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/02/2014 07:23

Mazzle The main trick to press-ups is to keep your abs rigid the whole time.
So, you might need to strengthen your abs, via plank is especially good for pressups, as working upper body too.

Doing inclined pressups or Xfit pressups helps to build up the upper body muscle you need for full pressups.

MazzleDazzle · 25/02/2014 07:31

Remind me how to do a XFit press up, please BC.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/02/2014 11:00

Mazzle, look at the HandReleasePressups link a few posts down.

not entirely clear to me how that makes it any easier! I think I need to do a lot more planking (which I really don't like) and also focus on triceps ... I added some tricep dips to my inclined press-ups this morning after my JM dvd. I was hoping I'd crack this by the end of feb but that's really not looking likely. Oh well, nil desperandum!

BigChocFrenzy · 25/02/2014 11:17

Errol Most folk find the Xfit Pressups are slightly easier on the shoulders.
Since they can do more of them, this strengthened the muscles required for the absolute full-on proper pressups.

I think B&W, MrsF, Betsy all reported it helped them do the full ones.