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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

999 replies

BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 31/12/2013 01:51

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Fasted training, i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF, but it is advisable to first become used to fasting

Exercise alone does not produce significant weight loss for most people. However it can improve body shape and can help overcome weight plateaux.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart diesease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

  • Try to train regularly, building up to 3-6 days per week.
  • Develop a training routine you enjoy and want to continue long term.
  • Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve" BendAge

WARNING: If you are very obese or have health issues, check with your GP that you are able to start exercising and also if there are types of exercise you should avoid.

Fat and Metabolism

Body fat is highly active tissue which secretes hormones (e.g. leptin, adiponectin) and microphages (which cause inflammation) directly into the bloodstream. These substances can significantly affect metabolism & weight and increase the risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, some cancers.
E.g ref and ref

Visceral fat is more dangerous than subcutaneous - a study found that liposuction removing up to 20lb of the latter did not improve health indicators. Visceral fat needs to be reduced by exercise and a calorie deficit, preferably both together.

Hormesis

"What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson and Hormesis can be applied to exercise, analagous to how 5:2 /IF uses it for nutrition.
Alternating between “extremes” of feast and fast (like 5:2) or intense training and rest, makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is not necessary and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Only high intensity exercise recruits the fast-twitch muscle fibers that have the most glycogen (stored glucose). Steady State Cardio does not empty the glucose stores in those particular muscles. Hence, the circulating glucose has nowhere to be stored — except as bodyfat.

Moreover, the muscle cells will lose their sensitivity to insulin and become inflamed by the high levels of insulin, which the body has produced to deal with the high levels of circulating glucose. The body mortars this inflammation with LDL cholesterol.

Hence, those exercising only at low-medium intensity are at greater risk of cardiovascular problems than high intensity exercisers SteadyState (pp. 31-34).
Obviously, non-exercisers have the highest risk of all.

RECOMMENDED TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do a variety of training: HIIT cardio, resistance and flexibility.

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are inadequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.
However, 10 mins walk on a treadmill or outside is beneficial after training, especially after heavy lifting.
Scientists have proved that cardio and resistance training can be done in the same session, without detriment to either, e.g. TrainBoth

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

Flexibility

  • Stretching for 5 mins before and after each training session is recommended
  • Yoga and Pilates classes can be added if additional flexibility training is desired. Some such classes also provide additional strength / toning.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods. Time intervals may be equal or different and their length and the number of sets depends on fitness level.

Start with one session per week and build up to a maximum of 3 (no more).

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis). However, beginners should build up gradually, starting say with just 1 or 2 intervals.

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs
or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer classes, e.g.
spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)
which each use a form of interval training.
These classes require less planning and are often more enjoyable (music, socialising, equipment) than training on your own.

A typical HIIT session could consist of:

  • 4 mins warmup
  • 8 sets of intervals
  • 4 mins cooldown
and last 12-60 mins in total.

Recovery time is usually half the high intensity time.
Examples of typical interval sets are:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery OR
  • 40 sec high + 20 sec low OR
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low

Detailed HIIT example plans: (scroll down to Workouts section and ignore whether entitled "cutting" or "bulking") BodyBuild

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

This helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.

It is easier in a gym, especially re equipment. You can lift in the weights area on your own OR in a pump class.
Whether @ gym or home, before you start lifting, have a few lessons with a trainer to learn the correct form and avoid injury.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

WARNING
The "Heavy" lifting described here should not exceed bodyweight unless you are really fit and expert.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Main Lifting / Resistance Exercises

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests
E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups. Alternatively, use bodyweight.
squats
bent-over rows (press button "female")
Behind neckPress (press button "female")
dead lift
The abs and smaller muscle groups will automatically be trained by these exercises, but you can add optionally 20 mins weekly abs exercises:

Basic Abs

  • Situps: build up to 3 sets of 20 reps. Try to put your arms in front of you, instead of behind your head
  • Angled situps: with one ankle resting on the opposite knee. 2 sets of 15 each side
  • Plank: 3 sets, each 45 secs
  • Leg extensions: legs bent 90 degrees, so your lower legs are parallel to the floor. Stretch each leg in turn, parallel to the floor. 3 sets of 10.

Lifting To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets
e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

Lifting To Build More Muscle
With a lower weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

Additionally, or if you don't have heavy barbells, use your bodyweight.
Example to build up to:

  • 3 sets of 30 press ups, proper ones, see detail below +.
  • 40 deep squats, with thighs parallel to floor, i.e. ATG (Arse to Grass) see ++.
  • 3 set of 8 reps inverted pullup /row Inverted OR assisted chin-ups on a gym machine OR full chin-ups if you can manage them (Amazon have pullup bars which fit over doors from about £15)

+Press ups

  • It is best to keep attempting one proper pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms.

++Squats

  • Are the best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -For bodyweight squats, bring your arms forward -Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

CAUTION With Leangains-Type Protocols

5:2 is an easier WOL than other forms of IF, with most days being NFDs during which the body can recuperate.

Some women have had injuries or health problems with very tough LeanGains-type protocols, which combine ADF or daily 16:8 with fasted lifting of multiples of body weight.

Some women have achieved excellent results on LeanGains-type; others had problems after a few months, or even from the start. Particularly at risk are women with very low (11-18%) body fat, possibly already with irregular menstruation, or with EDs.

Post-menopausal women seem to do well, as do men, presumably due to differences in hormones, body fat %, metabolism.

RECOMMENDATION: Don't lift more than your bodyweight and mostly lift well below it.

Running versus Walking

Walking is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref . Typical values:

  • For running (5 mph and higher): Total calories burned per mile = .75 x body weight (in pounds); net calories (see ++) burned per mile = .63 x weight.
  • For walking (3 to 4 mph): Total calories burned per mile = .53 x body weight; net calories burned per mile = .30 x weight.

++ Note: net calories = total calories - cals the body would have burned at rest (calculated from BMR)

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

We start losing bone density from about age 35. Women can lose a great deal before, during and after menopause.

Other risk factors: Smoking, heavy drinking, inactive lifestyle, very slim build, family history of osteoporosis, longterm steroid use.

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight bearing exercises that load the bone along its length

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better than lunges: The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density as it does not really load bones along their length. A study found that cyclists who did no other exercise had low bone density because of the combo of this with their training Osteo

KETTLEBELLS

Useful exercise descriptions and videos: Kettle
Recommended for beginners (and shown in the link):
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

How to Choose a Gym (if you want to)

  • gym offpeak can be as cheap as £30 p.m. as you don't need expensive pools, sauna, juice bars, massage etc.
  • within journey time 20 mins
  • plenty of classes at times to suit you
  • creche if needed
  • don't bother with expense of a personal trainer.

Start with these classes if available:

  • weekly spin, because you can set your own resistance and speed 45-60 mins
  • any additional interval training class, see earlier for list.
  • weekly pump 60 mins
  • weekly abs class 15-30 mins

======================================

CALCULATORS:
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages:
HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

More links: 52FastDietForum-Fasting & Exercise 52exercise GettingStronger.Org-Hormesis Hormesis GettingStronger.Org-Fitness Fitness LeanGains Protocols : Leangains MarksDailyApple-Home Workouts Without Equipment WorkAtHome

OP posts:
Breadandwine · 06/02/2014 00:30

Good article on how far and how fast to run/jog is linked to in this thread on the (newly named) FastDay forum:

www.fastday.com/exercise-f24/the-sweet-spot-of-exercise-intensity-and-duration-t11173.html

Thanks, Errol - I tried again tonight on my left side with both feet touching the floor - then found I could move my right foot over on top of my left foot. And I did 30 seconds holding!

Now upped my pull-ups to 3 sets of 15.

Lazysuzanne · 06/02/2014 01:01

Bread, that is also a Ted talk/you tube vid

Suzannewithaplan · 06/02/2014 01:19

I have read other stuff about the link between high intensity cardio and heart muscle damage...I don't think it's anything particularly new.

I don't really subscribe to the 'born to run' hypothesis, if anything I think humans are adapted to walk long distances with some sprinting or jogging when extra speed was required.

Running is not energy efficient and paleolithic man wouldn't have had access to so much food that he could afford to waste energy by running hither and thither just for the hell of it

Suzannewithaplan · 06/02/2014 01:20

3 sets of 15 pull ups!
crikey!
are those full range of motion pull ups Bread?

Breadandwine · 06/02/2014 01:50

Not yet, Suzannewithaplan! Grin

I guess I'm lifting myself a few inches each time. But 10 weeks ago, when I began, I could only just hang there for 5 seconds!

Oh, and as a result, I've regained that inch I lost as I aged, which is very satisfying!

Welcome to the thread, BTW!

Thanks, Lazysuzanne - I love TED talks!

Suzannewithaplan · 06/02/2014 09:34

Oops I should have said I am formerly Lazysuzanne Wink

Well done on the pull up progress, perhaps I should try some hanging, I suspect I've lost nearly half an inch.

Is it partly that your grip strength has improved?

TalkinPeace · 06/02/2014 12:28

Suzanne I like the new name!

Tried a new thing at the gym today .... copied from a friend.
Lie on the floor under a static bar that is exactly arms length above your chest. Grip hands slightly wider than shoulders and then pull up to the bar, holding body in plank shape
effectively an upside down pressup
I managed 10

And managed 5 one legged squats on the bosu on each leg.

Suzannewithaplan · 06/02/2014 12:46

I've tried 'pressdowns' they look good but I couldn't get comfortable with them

You'll be doing pistol squats next (I find them biomecanically impossible! )

TalkinPeace · 06/02/2014 12:51

Grin that is indeed what I was working towards - on the bosu - but my knees protest .... more practice needed

Suzannewithaplan · 06/02/2014 13:03

Any thing one legged and my sciatic nerve pipes up :(

BigChocFrenzy · 06/02/2014 14:12

tip Sounds like you are doing exactly what I call "reverse row/pull-ups on low bar".
They are sometimes called "Australian pull-ups"

I do a few sets of those with wide arms and narrow arms. They are not as severe as pull-ups, but very useful to strengthen the same muscles until I can do pull-ups properly. My body seems too optimised towards press-ups, i.e. pushing movement, rather than pull-up type exercise.

I'm doing a lot of HIIT, CrossFit, boxing, so I only lift heavy and do pull-ups on Sundays at the moment.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/02/2014 18:31

No formal exercise for me today as we stripped down the living room prior to having a new gas fire installed, and took the opportunity for a spring clean - so a variety of weight lifting and stretches Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 09/02/2014 13:47

I misread Errol's post as "we stripped down IN the lounge" , so I was really expecting to read some imteresting alternate exercise !
Oh, well. Rinse out my contact lenses again.

BetsyBell · 10/02/2014 11:33

Yay, feeling better today: 3 miles brisk walking and same again of cycling (collecting a new-to-me bike). Good to be back in action - thighs appeared to have expanded over the last week so time to whip them back into shape.

Not quite ready to get back to push ups and squats though BCF

ErrolTheDragon · 10/02/2014 12:08

Sounds more like something to do after installing the new fire. Grin

Anyway - foul weather over the weekend so caught up with my exercise and did half an hour on the rower yesterday. Shred an inclined press-ups this morning - down to the sofa base for wide arm, table for narrow arm, 3x12 each. Did better than I was expecting TBH except hard to get my hands positioned comfortably on the former.

Managed to persuade the dog to go as far as the postbox this morning too.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/02/2014 12:18

Welcome back to exercising, Betsy.
Don't be frightened, I won't chase you ^^. After a bad lurgy, you need to ease gently into exercising

BigChocFrenzy · 10/02/2014 12:27

Error Your own training is proceeding well.

Now what can we do to train that lazy dog:

  • Would he prefer walks with you if there was another owner with dog, so the K9s can play together ^^
  • If all else fails, doggy treadmills have a proud history and you could use him as a (fairly) power source for appliances, to offset carbon and dogfood TreadMill
ErrolTheDragon · 10/02/2014 12:46

Oh, he'll walk miles if we drive him somewhere - his problem is with walking straight from the door which is what I want to do if short of time! Anyway, this morning with harness rather than collar he realised that resistance was futile as he couldn't slip it and scamper back home. Grin

ErrolTheDragon · 12/02/2014 11:19

Did my shred and 3x16 wide arm push ups ... then some narrower arm ones, during which I realised that my elbows go outwards when I'm doing them which is making something other than my triceps do more of the work. I looked at some stuff on-line - my wide-arm really is a lot wider than 'standard' press-up position and 'narrow arm' is not that narrow. Not sure I found a particularly good website though ... can anyone recommend a site with really clear videos of various positions please?

Anyway, I went back to kitchen counter level and made sure I kept my elbows in and also tried a few with my hands together - which I had to do against the wall not further down, lowering to forearms against the wall. That seemed to focus on the triceps, found it difficult so probably doing something useful!

BigChocFrenzy · 12/02/2014 14:17

Errol
This looks like your wide arm inclined pressup for shoulders:InclinedPress
You can go as wide as you like, but the wiser the easier - although my trainer also thinks it slightly increases the risk of injury to the shoulder

BigChocFrenzy · 12/02/2014 14:35

I've never injured myself doing pressups though.

This is just a narrow pressup for shoulders, sometimes called "diamond" pressup, where elbows go outward, probably similar to what you are doing: Diamond

This is real triceps inclined pressup, with elbows going backwards Triceppressup

ErrolTheDragon · 12/02/2014 15:28

Thanks BigChoc Flowers.

OK, so I'm not doing anything too abnormal (my shoulders feel fine with the wide arm ones), but need to make sure I keep including proper triceps ones. Once I can do the wide-arm ones on the floor I can work on gradually reducing the spread as well as narrower inclined I guess. Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 07:24

Time for some Eye Candy ^^ Smile
This lad is sooo persuasive about diamond pushups - where arms bend outwards, but hands are close together in diamond shape Hunk

ErrolTheDragon · 13/02/2014 08:05

Great - pretty much confirms what I was figuring out. He mentions 'elbows in' a couple of times - after focussing on that yesterday I've a bit of an ache in my triceps which doesn't usually happen. A good 'something might be happening' sort of ache! Smile

womblesofwestminster · 13/02/2014 10:21

Two questions for you fitness dudes:

  1. What is this 'Steady State Cardio' I should be avoiding at the gym? Can you give some examples?
  1. What speed would 5mph be on the treadmill? Do most treadmills measure speed in mph? I generally do 2 miles at 6.5 but I'm unsure if this is mph.