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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

999 replies

BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 31/12/2013 01:51

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Fasted training, i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF, but it is advisable to first become used to fasting

Exercise alone does not produce significant weight loss for most people. However it can improve body shape and can help overcome weight plateaux.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart diesease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

  • Try to train regularly, building up to 3-6 days per week.
  • Develop a training routine you enjoy and want to continue long term.
  • Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve" BendAge

WARNING: If you are very obese or have health issues, check with your GP that you are able to start exercising and also if there are types of exercise you should avoid.

Fat and Metabolism

Body fat is highly active tissue which secretes hormones (e.g. leptin, adiponectin) and microphages (which cause inflammation) directly into the bloodstream. These substances can significantly affect metabolism & weight and increase the risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, some cancers.
E.g ref and ref

Visceral fat is more dangerous than subcutaneous - a study found that liposuction removing up to 20lb of the latter did not improve health indicators. Visceral fat needs to be reduced by exercise and a calorie deficit, preferably both together.

Hormesis

"What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson and Hormesis can be applied to exercise, analagous to how 5:2 /IF uses it for nutrition.
Alternating between “extremes” of feast and fast (like 5:2) or intense training and rest, makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is not necessary and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Only high intensity exercise recruits the fast-twitch muscle fibers that have the most glycogen (stored glucose). Steady State Cardio does not empty the glucose stores in those particular muscles. Hence, the circulating glucose has nowhere to be stored — except as bodyfat.

Moreover, the muscle cells will lose their sensitivity to insulin and become inflamed by the high levels of insulin, which the body has produced to deal with the high levels of circulating glucose. The body mortars this inflammation with LDL cholesterol.

Hence, those exercising only at low-medium intensity are at greater risk of cardiovascular problems than high intensity exercisers SteadyState (pp. 31-34).
Obviously, non-exercisers have the highest risk of all.

RECOMMENDED TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do a variety of training: HIIT cardio, resistance and flexibility.

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are inadequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.
However, 10 mins walk on a treadmill or outside is beneficial after training, especially after heavy lifting.
Scientists have proved that cardio and resistance training can be done in the same session, without detriment to either, e.g. TrainBoth

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

Flexibility

  • Stretching for 5 mins before and after each training session is recommended
  • Yoga and Pilates classes can be added if additional flexibility training is desired. Some such classes also provide additional strength / toning.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods. Time intervals may be equal or different and their length and the number of sets depends on fitness level.

Start with one session per week and build up to a maximum of 3 (no more).

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis). However, beginners should build up gradually, starting say with just 1 or 2 intervals.

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs
or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer classes, e.g.
spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)
which each use a form of interval training.
These classes require less planning and are often more enjoyable (music, socialising, equipment) than training on your own.

A typical HIIT session could consist of:

  • 4 mins warmup
  • 8 sets of intervals
  • 4 mins cooldown
and last 12-60 mins in total.

Recovery time is usually half the high intensity time.
Examples of typical interval sets are:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery OR
  • 40 sec high + 20 sec low OR
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low

Detailed HIIT example plans: (scroll down to Workouts section and ignore whether entitled "cutting" or "bulking") BodyBuild

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

This helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.

It is easier in a gym, especially re equipment. You can lift in the weights area on your own OR in a pump class.
Whether @ gym or home, before you start lifting, have a few lessons with a trainer to learn the correct form and avoid injury.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

WARNING
The "Heavy" lifting described here should not exceed bodyweight unless you are really fit and expert.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Main Lifting / Resistance Exercises

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests
E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups. Alternatively, use bodyweight.
squats
bent-over rows (press button "female")
Behind neckPress (press button "female")
dead lift
The abs and smaller muscle groups will automatically be trained by these exercises, but you can add optionally 20 mins weekly abs exercises:

Basic Abs

  • Situps: build up to 3 sets of 20 reps. Try to put your arms in front of you, instead of behind your head
  • Angled situps: with one ankle resting on the opposite knee. 2 sets of 15 each side
  • Plank: 3 sets, each 45 secs
  • Leg extensions: legs bent 90 degrees, so your lower legs are parallel to the floor. Stretch each leg in turn, parallel to the floor. 3 sets of 10.

Lifting To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets
e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

Lifting To Build More Muscle
With a lower weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

Additionally, or if you don't have heavy barbells, use your bodyweight.
Example to build up to:

  • 3 sets of 30 press ups, proper ones, see detail below +.
  • 40 deep squats, with thighs parallel to floor, i.e. ATG (Arse to Grass) see ++.
  • 3 set of 8 reps inverted pullup /row Inverted OR assisted chin-ups on a gym machine OR full chin-ups if you can manage them (Amazon have pullup bars which fit over doors from about £15)

+Press ups

  • It is best to keep attempting one proper pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms.

++Squats

  • Are the best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -For bodyweight squats, bring your arms forward -Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

CAUTION With Leangains-Type Protocols

5:2 is an easier WOL than other forms of IF, with most days being NFDs during which the body can recuperate.

Some women have had injuries or health problems with very tough LeanGains-type protocols, which combine ADF or daily 16:8 with fasted lifting of multiples of body weight.

Some women have achieved excellent results on LeanGains-type; others had problems after a few months, or even from the start. Particularly at risk are women with very low (11-18%) body fat, possibly already with irregular menstruation, or with EDs.

Post-menopausal women seem to do well, as do men, presumably due to differences in hormones, body fat %, metabolism.

RECOMMENDATION: Don't lift more than your bodyweight and mostly lift well below it.

Running versus Walking

Walking is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref . Typical values:

  • For running (5 mph and higher): Total calories burned per mile = .75 x body weight (in pounds); net calories (see ++) burned per mile = .63 x weight.
  • For walking (3 to 4 mph): Total calories burned per mile = .53 x body weight; net calories burned per mile = .30 x weight.

++ Note: net calories = total calories - cals the body would have burned at rest (calculated from BMR)

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

We start losing bone density from about age 35. Women can lose a great deal before, during and after menopause.

Other risk factors: Smoking, heavy drinking, inactive lifestyle, very slim build, family history of osteoporosis, longterm steroid use.

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight bearing exercises that load the bone along its length

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better than lunges: The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density as it does not really load bones along their length. A study found that cyclists who did no other exercise had low bone density because of the combo of this with their training Osteo

KETTLEBELLS

Useful exercise descriptions and videos: Kettle
Recommended for beginners (and shown in the link):
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

How to Choose a Gym (if you want to)

  • gym offpeak can be as cheap as £30 p.m. as you don't need expensive pools, sauna, juice bars, massage etc.
  • within journey time 20 mins
  • plenty of classes at times to suit you
  • creche if needed
  • don't bother with expense of a personal trainer.

Start with these classes if available:

  • weekly spin, because you can set your own resistance and speed 45-60 mins
  • any additional interval training class, see earlier for list.
  • weekly pump 60 mins
  • weekly abs class 15-30 mins

======================================

CALCULATORS:
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages:
HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

More links: 52FastDietForum-Fasting & Exercise 52exercise GettingStronger.Org-Hormesis Hormesis GettingStronger.Org-Fitness Fitness LeanGains Protocols : Leangains MarksDailyApple-Home Workouts Without Equipment WorkAtHome

OP posts:
positively9something · 16/01/2014 21:14

bigchoc I would love to be a lean mean fighting machine :)

BigChocFrenzy · 16/01/2014 21:25

Bssh Trust me, you'll love spin. With a motivational trainer, catchy tunes with a beat, it will really perk you up. Since there is normally a few seconds drink break every 1-2 songs, it is interval training.

Spin can be relaxing, loosening up muscles after lifting, or it can be a tough HIIT workout. Depends on the class and also what resistance / speed you choose.
One of my classes has a calorie monitor and we average 1000 cals in the hour (YMMV), so can be great for fat-burning. Also tones bums and legs.
You set your own resistance, try to keep with the pace, but as a beginner, you can sit down and pedal slowly if you get tired.

Try different spin xlasses, because choice of trainer and music is a very individual thing. I do 3-4 different weekly spin classes, to enjoy the variety, even though they are all HIIT.

EarSlaps · 16/01/2014 21:50

I don't know why not Errol- I carry my 12kg DS in a sling every day, it's great exercise Grin. Can't imagine the dog would like it though! Very cute looking dog there (though I have to admit I'm a cat person).

Forgot I still had my swimsuit pic up! Oh well, I'll keep it a bit longer then, at least until I have biceps like BigChoc (might be waiting a while then).

I loved spin when I was a member of a gym, I found it quite relaxing in a way as the room was quite dark so you could go into your own little world. Major sweat-fest too. One day I'll be able to go back to a gym!

BigChocFrenzy · 16/01/2014 22:44

Positive Check if your gym has a suitable creche.
Classes may be morning, lunchtime, all through the evening; I do classes 6 pm, 7pm or 8pm.
Can you even leave your DC at your mum's overnight one day at week ?

Also check out classes that tone and burn a lot of calories - spin, pump, Pilates, Zumba, step - at times that suit you. Try several out, to find a couple you enjoy enough to do regularly.
Good music is a great motivator to exercise and really cheers you up.

Breadandwine · 17/01/2014 00:27

Come on, B&W, show us your kettle !

Here's a video of my 2-handed swing just for you, BCF!

As if you don't get to see enough hunks! Grin

Banderchang · 17/01/2014 09:37

Hi all - I wonder if you can answer a question for me. I've been doing 5:2 since May and had pretty much reached goal weight so decided it was time to tone up a bit.

I've been doing lots of walking, a weekly dance class and the 30 day shred which I've been doing daily for a week so far.

Today at my weekly weigh in after my second fast, I'd gained 4 pounds (after a gain of 1 pound last week)! Is this what I can expect now, through adding in exercise? Will my weight now rise every week as I build muscle? And how can I counteract that?

For context, I wasn't overweight to start with: 5'7 and started at 10 stone 6 and was 9 stone 4 (now 9 stone 9). I'm doing 5;2 mainly for health benefits and also to improve my IBS for which I no longer need to take medication after fasting for so long.

Since I began 5:2 in May, I've always either lost or maintained each week, and even continued my fasting over the Christmas break to make sure that my IBS didn't worsen.

I am feeling stronger for the exercise, but really don't want my weight to shoot back up again so feel quite despondent. I'm not eating back exercise calories and am sticking to TDEE on NFDs.

Any advice on how to continue to lose weight, or at least maintain 9 stone 4? I had been aiming for 9 stone, but now I'm heading in the wrong direction Sad

Lazysuzanne · 17/01/2014 10:46

As long as you're not gaining fat I don't see the problem.
Muscle/ lean tissue is good!

Muscle is almost twice as dense as fat, that's why athletes can have quite a high BMI even with very low body fat.

Exercise will also mean that muscles store more glycogen this makes them more dense.

Would you be able to use some body fat scales to reassure you that the extra weight is muscle not fat?

ErrolTheDragon · 17/01/2014 10:49

Bander, if you're not fatty then I guess exercise could lead to muscle weight gain. But surely that's fine - what matters is whether or not you're gaining fat.

I started 5:2 at the same time as shredding last year (I've always walked) and have built muscle while losing weight but that's because I started out plump.

BetsyBell · 17/01/2014 10:54

Banderchang Something to remember is that when you increase your exercise regime your muscles will need to repair themselves after each onslaught (it's the repair work that makes your muscles stronger). To repair themselves your muscles need to use a lot of water so you may find that much of that 'weight' is water. It will settle down as your body becomes used to the extra activity!

Don't panic. Why not lay off the scales for a while and focus on measuring yourself with a tape measure - muscles are heavier but they are also leaner so you should be losing inches and getting fitter. Far more important than a somewhat arbitrary number on a set of scales.

Surely we are looking to be as healthy, fit and toned as possible?

ErrolTheDragon · 17/01/2014 10:57

Anyway, my last day of level 1 shred (for this time round) done; 3x55 sec forearm planks, 3x20 inclined push-ups, 3x1:15 extended arm planks. The push-ups were on a 75cm table so I've been looking for something solid a few inches shorter for next week.

weekend is rest days, though hopefully we'll do a decent walk on sunday.

Just talking to DH - he's determined to get fitter this year too. He said he realised he probably wasn't fit enough at the moment to climb a mountain without really struggling - so we've decided that this year we will climb one of the big Lake District ones - I'm thinking Helvellyn.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/01/2014 11:06

Can I ask you experts something? There's someone on the shred thread who is finding it too hard on her knees - she's going to go to the GP - but I'm wondering if meanwhile there's anything she could do that wouldn't use them, it sounds like she really doesn't want to quit exercising. I'm assuming that she likes the do-it-at-home approach. Any ideas please?

Banderchang · 17/01/2014 11:06

Thanks everyone. You're right, it doesn't actually matter what the scales say, I suppose, it's just that I've been using that as a barometer for such a long time! Never occurred to me to measure myself with a tape measure, so I might try that for a while instead. And Betsy thanks for the tip about water retention - that might well explain the dramatic gain!

Thanks for all the help - I've been lurking on the main 5:2 thread since I started this WOE in May and you've all been such an inspiration!

ErrolTheDragon · 17/01/2014 11:35

Don't look at B&Ws link if you're on a FD - the bread looks wonderful. But otherwise - wow, apart from the strength so flexible!

which reminds me, I can now get my forearms on the floor when I'm doing my cooldown stretching, didn't used to be able to do that. Getting a bit more flexible rather than less when you're over 50 is pleasing!Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 17/01/2014 12:21

Banderchang
A 100kg male bodybuilder, lifting heavy weights umpteen hrs per week, could add 4 lb muscle in that time.
Don't worry: you don't have his testosterone and you've only done shred for a week. Walking, a weekly dance and shred would slowly add some muscle over months and give you a better shape.

So, that 4lb is not muscle, could be extra water to repair your muscle fibres.
OR have you changed what you eat - e.g. increased your carbs, especially bread / pasta / rice - any of these would probably cause your body to store more water. Or your body could be reacting to a new food.

Yes, definitely measure your waist & hips at your weigh-ins. The % fat on scales is very rough, but can show a trend if you weigh under identical conditions, e.g. in the morning after loo and before any food or drink.

Do let us know how you get on.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/01/2014 12:30

B&W I'm all agog and eager to see your kettle, but I'll have to do so on another machine tonight.
I see a blank space in your blog, where I should see a twirling man, so I think my firewall is blocking you as a porn hunk !
Your breads look absolutely yummy: avert your eyes, anyone on an FD.

As always, reading your latest blog, I'm impressed by how fast you are progressing - it's that testosterone advantage you have over us !

TalkinPeace · 17/01/2014 13:01

Errol
could you link me to the shred / knees thread and I'll have a look - 30 years of dodgy knees, rather a past master at working out options

did dance fit for the first time today - it was OK - knees are tired but not sore, ribs ache from all the twisting.

BsshBossh · 17/01/2014 13:11

Oooo Breadandwine I winced every time you swung your kettlebell back towards those French windows!

EarSlaps · 17/01/2014 13:12

Errol, I suspect the best option for knees/shred issue is just substituting exercises, eg swap lunges and any variant of them for some type of squat.

Did 16:8, with a Ripped in 30 just before a yummy lunch of egg salad sandwich, yoghurt and cake.

BsshBossh · 17/01/2014 13:21

Banderchang I agree with Betsy and BigChoc - it's likely not muscle (and certainly not fat) weight gain but water. The last time I did a major increase in my exercise routine (weight training) I "gained" 5 lbs in a week despite doing 5:2 to the letter. It quickly disappeared. At the same time I agree with Lazysuzanne (who should drop the Lazy from her name!) in that eventually as you build muscle any gains from that shouldn't be feared.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/01/2014 16:35

Earslaps, that's what I'd already suggested - and actually she said after a couple of days rest her knees feel a lot stronger, but I somewhat doubt joints really recover that fast.

TiP - the thread is here, poster 'wherearemyshoes'.

Thanks both.

Lazysuzanne · 17/01/2014 17:34

Kind of you to say so Bssh
(however, I am in many ways deeply lazy Blush )

BetsyBell · 17/01/2014 17:36

Reasons to love TaeKwonDo on a Friday evening #427: Kids are tired and therefore being vile; normally at this point I would crack open a bottle of red, so instead of self-medicating I get to go and kick, punch and shout instead Grin

Can't wait, haven't done any proper exercise since Tuesday. I will go a little bit easier though as didn't much enjoy having to ice pack my thigh on Tuesday.

I haven't even worked on my semi-girly press ups Blush

BigChocFrenzy · 17/01/2014 22:41

Aargh, the frustration. I turned off all the filters I could find and allowed everything, but I still see a blank space where B&W should be swinging his kettle. Maybe it's an iPad thing. I'll try on the machine at work during Monday lunchtime.
You made quite an impression on Bssh and I'm very eager to see you swinging too, B&W !

BsshBossh · 17/01/2014 23:06

BigChoc I can't view on iPad either, only on my PC. It might be Flash.

Breadandwine · 17/01/2014 23:30

My goodness, guys! You really need to see the last item on Newsnight tonight - 4 examples of extreme exercise:

Hydrophony (I think), which places a bike in water - apparently this makes it 12 times harder to ride the bike. The goal is to get to 60kph - very unlikely!

Doga: yoga whilst holding a dog - I kid you not!

Vikings and Valkyrie: involves turning over truck tyres, lifting oil drums and beating the shit out of something - you never saw what they were hitting!

Ravercise: Raving and exercising - just looks like energetic dancing, to me.

You can catch it online:

www.bbc.co.uk/tv/bbctwo/live for the next 90 minutes or check on iPlayer in a little while.

Seriously weird!

(Hope that makes up for not being able to see me swinging, BCF!)