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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

999 replies

BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 31/12/2013 01:51

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Fasted training, i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF, but it is advisable to first become used to fasting

Exercise alone does not produce significant weight loss for most people. However it can improve body shape and can help overcome weight plateaux.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart diesease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

  • Try to train regularly, building up to 3-6 days per week.
  • Develop a training routine you enjoy and want to continue long term.
  • Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve" BendAge

WARNING: If you are very obese or have health issues, check with your GP that you are able to start exercising and also if there are types of exercise you should avoid.

Fat and Metabolism

Body fat is highly active tissue which secretes hormones (e.g. leptin, adiponectin) and microphages (which cause inflammation) directly into the bloodstream. These substances can significantly affect metabolism & weight and increase the risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, some cancers.
E.g ref and ref

Visceral fat is more dangerous than subcutaneous - a study found that liposuction removing up to 20lb of the latter did not improve health indicators. Visceral fat needs to be reduced by exercise and a calorie deficit, preferably both together.

Hormesis

"What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson and Hormesis can be applied to exercise, analagous to how 5:2 /IF uses it for nutrition.
Alternating between “extremes” of feast and fast (like 5:2) or intense training and rest, makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is not necessary and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Only high intensity exercise recruits the fast-twitch muscle fibers that have the most glycogen (stored glucose). Steady State Cardio does not empty the glucose stores in those particular muscles. Hence, the circulating glucose has nowhere to be stored — except as bodyfat.

Moreover, the muscle cells will lose their sensitivity to insulin and become inflamed by the high levels of insulin, which the body has produced to deal with the high levels of circulating glucose. The body mortars this inflammation with LDL cholesterol.

Hence, those exercising only at low-medium intensity are at greater risk of cardiovascular problems than high intensity exercisers SteadyState (pp. 31-34).
Obviously, non-exercisers have the highest risk of all.

RECOMMENDED TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do a variety of training: HIIT cardio, resistance and flexibility.

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are inadequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.
However, 10 mins walk on a treadmill or outside is beneficial after training, especially after heavy lifting.
Scientists have proved that cardio and resistance training can be done in the same session, without detriment to either, e.g. TrainBoth

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

Flexibility

  • Stretching for 5 mins before and after each training session is recommended
  • Yoga and Pilates classes can be added if additional flexibility training is desired. Some such classes also provide additional strength / toning.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods. Time intervals may be equal or different and their length and the number of sets depends on fitness level.

Start with one session per week and build up to a maximum of 3 (no more).

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis). However, beginners should build up gradually, starting say with just 1 or 2 intervals.

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs
or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer classes, e.g.
spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)
which each use a form of interval training.
These classes require less planning and are often more enjoyable (music, socialising, equipment) than training on your own.

A typical HIIT session could consist of:

  • 4 mins warmup
  • 8 sets of intervals
  • 4 mins cooldown
and last 12-60 mins in total.

Recovery time is usually half the high intensity time.
Examples of typical interval sets are:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery OR
  • 40 sec high + 20 sec low OR
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low

Detailed HIIT example plans: (scroll down to Workouts section and ignore whether entitled "cutting" or "bulking") BodyBuild

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

This helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.

It is easier in a gym, especially re equipment. You can lift in the weights area on your own OR in a pump class.
Whether @ gym or home, before you start lifting, have a few lessons with a trainer to learn the correct form and avoid injury.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

WARNING
The "Heavy" lifting described here should not exceed bodyweight unless you are really fit and expert.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Main Lifting / Resistance Exercises

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests
E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups. Alternatively, use bodyweight.
squats
bent-over rows (press button "female")
Behind neckPress (press button "female")
dead lift
The abs and smaller muscle groups will automatically be trained by these exercises, but you can add optionally 20 mins weekly abs exercises:

Basic Abs

  • Situps: build up to 3 sets of 20 reps. Try to put your arms in front of you, instead of behind your head
  • Angled situps: with one ankle resting on the opposite knee. 2 sets of 15 each side
  • Plank: 3 sets, each 45 secs
  • Leg extensions: legs bent 90 degrees, so your lower legs are parallel to the floor. Stretch each leg in turn, parallel to the floor. 3 sets of 10.

Lifting To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets
e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

Lifting To Build More Muscle
With a lower weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

Additionally, or if you don't have heavy barbells, use your bodyweight.
Example to build up to:

  • 3 sets of 30 press ups, proper ones, see detail below +.
  • 40 deep squats, with thighs parallel to floor, i.e. ATG (Arse to Grass) see ++.
  • 3 set of 8 reps inverted pullup /row Inverted OR assisted chin-ups on a gym machine OR full chin-ups if you can manage them (Amazon have pullup bars which fit over doors from about £15)

+Press ups

  • It is best to keep attempting one proper pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms.

++Squats

  • Are the best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -For bodyweight squats, bring your arms forward -Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

CAUTION With Leangains-Type Protocols

5:2 is an easier WOL than other forms of IF, with most days being NFDs during which the body can recuperate.

Some women have had injuries or health problems with very tough LeanGains-type protocols, which combine ADF or daily 16:8 with fasted lifting of multiples of body weight.

Some women have achieved excellent results on LeanGains-type; others had problems after a few months, or even from the start. Particularly at risk are women with very low (11-18%) body fat, possibly already with irregular menstruation, or with EDs.

Post-menopausal women seem to do well, as do men, presumably due to differences in hormones, body fat %, metabolism.

RECOMMENDATION: Don't lift more than your bodyweight and mostly lift well below it.

Running versus Walking

Walking is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref . Typical values:

  • For running (5 mph and higher): Total calories burned per mile = .75 x body weight (in pounds); net calories (see ++) burned per mile = .63 x weight.
  • For walking (3 to 4 mph): Total calories burned per mile = .53 x body weight; net calories burned per mile = .30 x weight.

++ Note: net calories = total calories - cals the body would have burned at rest (calculated from BMR)

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

We start losing bone density from about age 35. Women can lose a great deal before, during and after menopause.

Other risk factors: Smoking, heavy drinking, inactive lifestyle, very slim build, family history of osteoporosis, longterm steroid use.

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight bearing exercises that load the bone along its length

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better than lunges: The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density as it does not really load bones along their length. A study found that cyclists who did no other exercise had low bone density because of the combo of this with their training Osteo

KETTLEBELLS

Useful exercise descriptions and videos: Kettle
Recommended for beginners (and shown in the link):
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

How to Choose a Gym (if you want to)

  • gym offpeak can be as cheap as £30 p.m. as you don't need expensive pools, sauna, juice bars, massage etc.
  • within journey time 20 mins
  • plenty of classes at times to suit you
  • creche if needed
  • don't bother with expense of a personal trainer.

Start with these classes if available:

  • weekly spin, because you can set your own resistance and speed 45-60 mins
  • any additional interval training class, see earlier for list.
  • weekly pump 60 mins
  • weekly abs class 15-30 mins

======================================

CALCULATORS:
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages:
HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

More links: 52FastDietForum-Fasting & Exercise 52exercise GettingStronger.Org-Hormesis Hormesis GettingStronger.Org-Fitness Fitness LeanGains Protocols : Leangains MarksDailyApple-Home Workouts Without Equipment WorkAtHome

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 17/01/2014 23:47

Doga - now there's an idea! Grin I haven't looked at the newsnight thing, but googled and found [ this]] youtube - doesn't look exactly extreme.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/01/2014 00:19

Thanks, B&W, I just love the idea of doga - get started with your dachshund, Errol. Lol !
Grin
I've read about strong women turning over truck tyres and I'd love a go, but no gym in my vicinity offers anything so daring. Only in the big city gyms, maybe.

Bssh Thanks for info re your iPad too. I'll watch B&W on Monday, then, so something to look forward to.

Breadandwine · 18/01/2014 01:08

Over on the main thread there's a discussion about losing height in later life - and that's certainly my experience. However, since beginning my chin-up exercises at the end of November, I think I've grown a bit back.

When I began, I had to use an Argos catalogue on the fourth step of the stairs to reach the first rail of the banisters upstairs - and I had to stand on tiptoe. When I wanted to get down, I'd flail around with my feet to reach the catalogue.

Now, after 7 weeks I can reach the rail standing with my feet flat on the step.

I was 5'7" when I was younger - and I've been an inch shorter than that in later life. I'll get my wife to measure me in the morning

MazzleDazzle · 18/01/2014 08:39

I love the idea of Ravercise!

Tell me about your chin-ups Breadandwine. I have zero upper body strength and I'm rather heavy, but I'd love to be able to do a pull up!

Just completed week 2 of my new exercise regime and I don't feel it's enough!

3 x 45 min classes which are high intensity,
Daily plank challenge
Daily squat challenge

I have the Shred DVD and used to enjoy it. Need to dust it off and get going.

And now I'm going to ask something really silly...do any of you have long hair? Mines fairly long and I try not to wash it more than every 2/3 days. If I workout 5 days a week, I'd have to wash my hair 5 days a week. Yes, I am a sweater! As in, I sweat a lot when I work out. Any tips? Other than chopping it off!

MazzleDazzle · 18/01/2014 10:41

3 sets of 60 sec planks,
75 squats,
3 sets of 5 big girl push ups.

More clammy than sweaty! Hair has survived.

My hands are shaking typing this on my phone!

Banderchang · 18/01/2014 10:58

Thanks for advice re water retention and assurance from BigChoc and Bssh that I can't really have gained that much muscle in a week!

Ok, so measuring - how does that work? Is my waist the narrowest part of me, or is it where my waistband sits (these are nowhere near each other!)?

Assuming waist is the narrowest part and my hips are the widest part of me, my measurements are currently:
Waist = 27.5"
Hips = 35"
Thigh (1 thigh) = 20.5" (my thighs are my bad area!)

Are there other areas I should be measuring?

I'm having a rest day from exercise today, but will get back to it tomorrow. Also fasting tomorrow and Tuesday this week, so will do another weigh in and measure on Weds morning.

farrowandballs · 18/01/2014 11:09

Hi! I've not eaten today after a 1000 calorie NFD yesterday (big night out today so saving up) and have just done half an hour of yogalates. Does this count as fasted exercise - ie will I get the benefits - or do I need to be getting really sweaty? I'm warm but not sweaty.

I've only been doing 5:2 for 2 weeks so I'm still getting used to it but plan to pack in smoking and start the Shred in February.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/01/2014 11:15

Hiya Banderchang. Yes, we measure the waist at the narrowest part, because that is a good place to monitor visceral fat (i.e. the gunge around the organs, which is the more dangerous kind).
This can easily be 2-3 inches above the navel.

If you exercise and don't increase your calories or carbs, you should gradually burn some fat and firm up the muscles. The measurements may take some time to change.
It depends on the individual whether fat goes first from one region or from uniformly all over.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/01/2014 11:55

Well done on your hard training, Mazzle

Yes, we normally sweat during training and have to wash hair afterwards.
One of the reasons why I chose short hair yonks ago.
However, I see women with long hair in the gym who train frequently. they are just careful to choose suitable shampoo and conditioners.
You can add cream afterwards, from Schwarzkopf and others, to add back nourishment.

Welcome, Farrow. Yes, that was fasted training.

It is good to start with a moderate amount of fasted exercise like you are doing and if possible over the weeks, build up to doing 45 mins of intense exrecise. HIIT especially seems to enhance fat-burning with IF/5-2.

farrowandballs · 18/01/2014 12:03

Thanks BigChoc Wow I'm so excited! I will read up on HIIT with a view to starting in Feb. I'm determined to start the second half of my 30s with a better relationship towards my body!

BigChocFrenzy · 18/01/2014 12:18

FASTED TRAINING

Fat-burning is accelerated during fasted training

It is the timing rather than the intensity that determines whether exercise is fasted: Roughly at least 10 hrs (including sleep) with no calories since the last big meal. On an FD, you may be fasted 3hrs after lunch. It just means your tum should feel empty.
I recommend a double espresson (to help release fat stores) about 10 mins before fasted training.

It is thought we gain maximum benefits at about 16 hrs. Anything up to 50 cals total counts as completely fasted.
Experienced fasters find their performance for 60-90 mins of intense exercise is not impaired after 16 hrs and may even be enhanced. Performance or at least endurance will probably be affected after 24 hrs.

E.g. I train on FDs as normal. However, if Saturday was an FD, then Sunday morning, when I do fasted spin, I won't do any more training afterwards. That's because I would have had 36hrs+ on only 500 -600 cals. I drink zero-cal BCAA (Branch chain amino acids) before Sunday spin and a big protein shake immediately after.

Before and after seriously intense HIIT or weightlifting lasting 60 mins+, I recommend taking BCAA. Alternatively, a zero-carb whey protein shake made with water (about 100 cals), drinking half before and half after.

IF / 5-2 newbies may need to get used to fasting before adding training to it. They should start by training before breakfast, then gradually work up to extending fasting time and exercise intensity.

Note: fasted training does NOT suit everyone. See how you get on, but stop if it doesn't feel right for you.

Breadandwine · 18/01/2014 12:39

Well, it's official! I've actually grown back that inch I lost as I aged!

My wife measured me this morning and I am…..

Drum roll!!

Five foot seven inches. GrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrin

Considering I've been 5.6 for many years, I'm extremely chuffed!

So now we can say 'Exercise to become fit - and to grow taller!' Or at least, regain the height you've lost!

Now I know this is just a 'study of one' - so I (we) need others to do the same. That is, for people who have lost some height to start doing some chin-ups and see if the height can be regained.

Mazzle, all I did was find somewhere to do the chin-ups - in my case it's the overhang over the stairs - and just hung there for a bit. Started at 5 seconds, then gradually increased this up to about 20 seconds. Then I began trying to lift myself, and found I could do several 'mini-lifts' at a time and slowly began to increase the number and range of lifts.

Here's the website that got me going. I really like this guy - he's all about training in the home, with no expensive gym or equipment.

BTW, BCF, I've been meaning to ask you for a while, now, why haven't you got your own gym class? You must have thought of going into teaching.

You could advertise yourself as being 'More scary than Jillian!' or somesuch! Grin

Banderchang · 18/01/2014 14:23

Thanks BigChoc, I'll keep monitoring those measurements then.

Well done on your new height, B&W! That must automatically lower your BMI then with no additional weightloss!

BigChocFrenzy · 18/01/2014 14:32

That's great news, B&W ! Very important information.
Exercise can maybe make us "grow" again. We must advertise this and see if others, especially women (different hormones), find this too.

In fact, less fit folk don't need manage even partial chin-ups; it sounds like just hanging by the arms from a bar would do, say try to total 1 minute in several "hangs" iyswim. Then build up the capability.

I am fascinated in the science of exercise and its interaction with nutrition, but it remains a hobby: I have a hard science "Piled Higher and Deeper" which has given me a stimulating & decently paid, secure job.
Maybe when I retire, you and I could run a training cause together, for mature folk who want to press-up and kettle.
Smile
Right, off now to my fasted lifting and spin. Happy training to any other fasters !

MazzleDazzle · 18/01/2014 18:49

Hmmm I'm not sure if I have a place to 'hang' indoors!

My kids have lots of outdoor equipment though. I could try hanging from their climbing frame! Will have to wrap up warm and wear gloves.

I will do well if I can last 10 secs!

Re. hair, it's the drying and the styling that I can never be bothered with! Perhaps when I shift this weight I will feel able to chop it off. I feel more attractive with long hair. Will def. have to look into the hair products that I use.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/01/2014 20:28

Tomorrow, I'm experimenting by taking big cheesy rolls from the bakery, to have at the gym with veg juice, directly after fasted spin.
I try to ration bread to once per week, and today was an FD with fasted training, so by tomorrow midday my body should be primed to efficiently burn up any carbs to replenish glycogen stocks etc.

This will give me time to cook my fillet steak and veg afterwards, without being tempted to inhale an entire jar of almond butter to keep me going.

My FDs are mostly LOFs, ready shakes, veg juice, cocoa, because I find that so convenient and I don't get tempted to over-eat.

Does anyone else have favourite or experimental food schedules with training ?

BigChocFrenzy · 18/01/2014 20:30

Mazzle Drying long hair does take time, but can you find a style that is attractive but easy-care, so you just shake it into shape, without any need for styling after combing ?

TalkinPeace · 18/01/2014 20:42

Mazzle
I have long hair
I get out of the pool, comb it into a plait for yoga type classes or a high ponytail for jumpy classes
after the class I either shampoo and condition or just rinse and condition and then wrap in a towel while I dress, swift comb out and up into a clip for the rest of the day
most people have no idea how long my hair actually is as its always up, but I can choose my style depending on mood

EarSlaps · 19/01/2014 15:22

Agree with Tip Mazzle- you can wash your hair with conditioner. Then it doesn't dry out too much with all the washing. It does mean you spend more time with your hair up.

The next three weeks are going to be tricky for exercise and fasting with the kitchen out of action and workmen in the house. I'll prob skip breakfast most days (one less meal to clean up after) and have to exercise when I can.

MazzleDazzle · 19/01/2014 16:21

Rinsing & conditioning sounds like a plan. My hair is up most days anyway. Just now I'm only working out properly 3 days a week, so wash my hair only on these days, but want to start another class.

We haven't a shower (Shock I know!) and the classes I attend are in gym halls with no changing facilities, so my big bath tub it is!

I've never tried almond butter Bigchoc, but it sounds like something I'd like. Must see where you can get it online. There are a few other things I fancy trying that I can't get locally. I live out in the sticks!

Breadandwine · 19/01/2014 17:31

Once again, the good folk on the 52fastdiet forum have turned up some excellent research - this time on HIIT. Haven't checked it out myself, yet, but it looks well worth checking out.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/01/2014 21:28

Thanks for HIIT link, B&W. I also found articles by the same guy (Prof James Timmons)

Important to know that Mosely's 3-minute blast significantly improved insulin levels. That may be the most important mechanism in how HIIT improves health; possibly why he claims fitter muscular system too - more efficient fuelling.

Also, as many of us have found, they state that HIIT tends to reduce appetite, whereas moderate intensity such as jogging or swimming may increase it.

Apparently Timmons's team will report their EU-wide research in 2016; hopefully they will release important findings before then.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/01/2014 21:31

Apparently, height and indeed organs start to shrink slightly from age 40.

To minimise / reverse height loss, the advice seems to be:

Do NOT: drink to excess, or smoke at all
DO: consume sufficient calcium (1200 mg daily) and exercise, especially hanging from a bar

Several refs e.g. NIHmedic HuffPost DirtyMail

MarksDailyApple noticed height regain and thought it was his Paleo diet, quite different to yours. However, he hangs around and does pull-ups like you MarkApple

BetsyBell · 19/01/2014 22:09

Exercise log update:

Wednesday: none, except usual day at work on feet (resting leg)
Thursday: Same
Friday: Taekwondo plus xfit pressups (10)
Saturday: 30mins cycling
Sunday: 20ish mins varied - incl. chest flyes, xfit pressups (2 x 8 with long plank hold between and after), various other things with handweights, leg lifts, sit ups and other things I don't know names for.

Lazysuzanne · 20/01/2014 00:08

Thanks for posting the link Bread, I
I'm halfway through the James Timmons lecture, very interesting!
Must read more of his stuff.

Challenged my other half to a pull up competition in the gym today, I lost with 6 reps to his 7.

However I made the mistake of going first, really he had to squeeze out that last rep or be publicly beaten by a girl :o

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