The 5:2 thread number 34 - New Year (title courtesy of B&W) Come and join us and take CONTROL! Of your weight, and of your lives.

[BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer]

The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.
The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.
By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low, around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.
You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.
WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.
MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.
TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.
NFD = Non fast day
NSV = Non scale victory
Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!
Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and we’re a friendly bunch.
Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:
All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.
Another thread which breadandwine has started is a good resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!
eatriskier’s thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.
frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!
If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.
Here is the link to the BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon - link to that programme here.
A blog post here gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.
This link nicely demonstrates that there are many body ‘right’ body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.
A Telegraph article which comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting. (I highly recommend this for an overview)
A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4 cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant.) it also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")
Something to consider if you are currently your ideal BMI: this appears to suggest the benefits for women at a lower BMI might not be seeing the same health benefits that are found on men at their ideal BMI. (Though anecdotal evidence from these long-running threads may suggest otherwise…)
A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.
A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!
Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this way of life!

Mazzle You really don't have to count for the other 5 days if you don't want to. i didn't when I first started 5:2, then counted for a few weeks because my weightloss stalled, and haven't counted since (I'm on maintenance now).

And the no snacking hasn't really got anything to do with 5:2, it is just one of the reasons we had weight to lose to begin with so makes sense as part of healthy eating (and is one of our own tips personal campaigns). I prefer to think of it as mindful eating, so I only eat when I really want to eat rather than just picking at things that aren't particularly tasty.

I completely agree that you have to calorie count - and even weigh things - so that you re-learn what a portion is and what foods are low on cals and which are heavy. Some are obvious, some jot so.
If you do want some snacks, then Tesco do a multipack of popcorn. I think three bags are sweet & about 40cal & the other three are savoury & about 20cal.

Mazzle I never calorie count these days. But others need to as they're still learning what normal portion sizes are.

And no snacking isn't part of 5:2 either but simply makes good sense from a fasting perspective (giving digestion regular breaks).

The problem with snacking is that it's so normalised to eat constantly. All diet plans (for weight loss!) seem to allow for 3 meals and 2 snacks - that's just so much eating! And I think it's quite to easy to then allow yourself to upsize each part of that eating until people are effectively thinking it's ok to eat 5 meals a day.

It's dangerous. We shouldn't be eating so much so often.

Once you've retrained your thinking and understand how much food you should be eating then fine, eat snacks mindfully. But be aware how pointless those snacking calories can be.

Hello All (limps charred arse onto thread)

Just letting you all know I'm still alive! Have horrendous internet issues so have barely been able to keep eye on thread let alone post.

Will be name changing soon back to Cuckoo when can get it to work.

First fd here for couple of weeks. Then will start properly with the ass kicking of fat come next tues.

Managed to inflate by a grand 7lbs according to scales this morning. Will be interested to see how that differs after today. The culprits for me were def booze/bread/saltySNACKS.

Hello to all Newbies - just get stuck in and wing it for the first few weeks. We all do things slightly differently so bear in mind that the first month (at least) is about finding what works for you. Lots of little tips and tricks but we're all different so don't be disheartened if something isn't working for you. Keep posting and someone will surely come and put you out of your misery with their own similar experience

Am at my cal limit today as a last minute trip to cinema found me shovelling dd's popcorn in like no tmw. Afterwards she had a bratwurst from farmers market which I had to bite each end off as too long for roll! Think that's me done for day. Found it pretty easy tbh but am probably still carrying 3 days worth of food in my bumbag

Hope you all had a lovely Chrimbo, will be back proper from Mon with hopefully some decent signal then too!

So true betsy.

Even on my NFD I now tend to eat twice a day, usually skipping breakfast and forgoing my usual bed time snack.

I've only been doing this for 2 weeks (5 x FD and 1 x 16:8) and it's been a real feast or famine. I'm looking forward to getting things on an even keel, without the excesses of Xmas & NY to overcome!

Hello, love to join if i may

Just completed first fast day. Drunk an AWFUL lot of herb tea, marigold bouillon and miso soup.

Feeling OK though. Reminds me of the 'breaking up' diet I had two years ago when DH left!

Fwiw - Apart from on fd I have never counted calories.

My own outlook on this - is that for me I prepare all the food I eat and know whether something is highly calorific or not anyway. Cheese = fat. Carrot = nutrtious. Carrot fried in lard = not so nutrtious!

It doesn't take much to look at back of a pack see the total per 100g and apply a bit of good old common sense.

Must point out this is combined with the fact that I never eat breakfast anyway and unless I am hungry for it, I often don't have lunch. I will have both if I want them but on the whole I don't 8/10 times.

The key to managing this I guess, is to only eat when genuinely hungry (something that identifying comes more easily with on 5:2), and to STOP when full. Smaller portions on plate can help with this.

However, on fd's I always count calories. The rest of working week I try to be sensible. But weekends are anything goes. The beauty of this is that 'anything goes' is actually a lot less than you'd think after fasting regularly for a while.

For some though, calorie counting is an essential part of educating themselves on what is 'normal' and learning just what is in that burger you're munching.

Just putting it out there that it is not essential to weight loss on this woe/wol - you will have to be judge of whether you need to or not. But it is perfectly doable without too. So if the thought of constantly cal counting is putting you off then try without. If you're not losing after a couple of weeks you only have yourself to blame you can rethink your decision and start mfping your heart out then.

I believe the pro counters often say after few weeks you don't need to as much.

Add to that, after few weeks your appetite is resetting itself anyway. It really does get easier. I love it!! Especially in a few fd's time when it has banished my Xmas lardy gain

Bssh
Dr Varady repeatedly says 500 cals is optimal on FDs, to optimise health benefits and retain lean body mass.
BUT is it the same for 5:2, with fewer FDs ? She criticised Dr Mosley for using her research, saying it couldn't be carried over to 5:2.
We urgently need proper scientific 5:2 studies, but I think there is only that one by Michelle Harvey, which also found just low-carbing on 2 consecutive days worked.

I've read warnings on a few lifting sites NOT to go without protein longer than about 20 hrs, because of the danger of muscle loss.
So, I've always hedged my bets and taken zero-cal BCAAs on FDs.

Welcome back, Turkey, we missed you !

Why did the turkey return ?
Because she wasn't cuckoo yet.

On Monday, check out my shiny new 5:2 exercise thread and lose those xmas lbs.

More geek stuff:

Surprisingly, Varady recommends high-fat meals on FDs as well as NFDs.

She says people lost more weight on high fat because they cheated less, also that saturated fat in food is not a danger to the cardiovascular system. Looks like the "fat is ok" view is now respectable.

I love eggs on fast days ...
spanish tortilla/omelette with loads of veg and then a bit of EALLY strong cheese on top
wonderful and tends to come in at 400 calories

Mmm, I love cheddar omelette. Alternatively, I have a small salad with a big fried fillet steak, or with smoked salmon and chilli prawns.

Many possibilities with 400 cals in one meal, if you low carb.

Betsy Bell,
Thanks for asking. I fared. I fared. I'm so happy. And of course you're so right. This is the chearing thread. I was in a very difficult place when I wrote that. Now, I just need to be able to sleep ok . I stuck to 500 cals and I must admit that I am going to sleep on a hungry tummy.
Looking forward to morning

Earslaps That is my problem. I want to have my cheese (as part of a meal) and eat it too (as a snack)! Will try though, as lucy and Bssh and SouthEast do, to have my snack-type food/cheese with my meal; maybe in snack-y format at first, instead of melted into a dish so it seems more like my snacking cheese. It is the one thing I would feel "deprived" without.

Betsy I could totally replace a meal with cheese quite happily as well, but would use my calorie count for the day at one sitting I fear!

I do need to break that habit, hopefully 5:2 will help me accomplish that. I suspect the late night snacks are quite directly responsible for the suspicious shrinkage of the waistbands of all of my clothes.

coveredinweetabix thanks for your advice. I think I have (very slowly) worked my way through the majority of 5:2 threads and my conclusion is that I just need to get on and do it!

So, Monday is my first FD........I'll be back

Baked Camembert with some fresh bread to dip and some salad or pickles makes rather a lovely weeknight dinner .

Bigchoc, I am very interested in what you are reading. Is Dr Varady suggesting that only 2 FD's a week isn't enough? I know there haven't been enough studies to make a conclusion, but it seems to me there is a huge body of (anecdotal) evidence here that shows that 5:2 does work for weight loss and health. I also think that it is so much more do-able to fast for 2 days. I don't think I could manage alternate days. It seems far too much like deprivation.

As for the stuff about fats, I have always believed that fat is an important part of the diet, after doing a lot of reading about the Paleo WOL. The human body evolved to eat healthy fats, including animal fats (for us, it should be grass fed, as grain fed fats (and seed oils) are too high in Omega 6 and 9, and we need Omega 3). However, the human body also evolved to fast, as food wasn't always available.

I tend not to eat many fats on fast days because I have concentrated on having more on my plate (loads of vege) as I think ,mentally, it makes me feel more satiated, when I should probably have a bit of fat, to make me satiated physically.

Someone up thread was saying it was hard not to snack with DH after dinner? I find that making and having a cup of herbal or green tea after dinner really helps. I love licorice tea in the evening as it is quite sweet (without sugar) and it just feels like I've had a treat. There are so many beautiful teas out there, I make it my mission to try new ones all the time.

I weighed in this morning. I did it before a wee and was most disappointed that I hadn't lost any weight after two fast days and sticking to TDEE on the other days. Well, I had a wee and I lost 800grams (1.7 lbs)! So that is, I suppose a SV? I may even weigh less after -ahem- a number two...My first goal is to get under 75kgs. I haven't been under 75 kgs for about twenty years. I weighed in at 77.2 this morning, so I am hoping in a few weeks I will get there. Then the next goal is 70kg, then 65. But,for now, it is one goal at a time, and as long as I'm losing, even if it's less than a kg, it feels good. My tummy definitely feels flatter.

A NSV I had yesterday was that we had friends drop in for a drink and they proceeded (along with my DH who broke his fast) to have wine, cheese and crackers, and I made a guacamole which looked delicious, but I managed to sip on my sparkling water, happy in the knowledge that dinner would be soon. I didn't feel deprived and didn't feel tempted, and for me that is a huge NSV.

The idea of having "snack" type foods at meal times is a really good one. The thing that kicked started my weight loss about 18 months ago (I am actually 10 kilos lighter than back then) was doing a thing called the Whole 30, and one great thing I learnt from that was that snacking was completely out of the question, and if you did want something (say after exercising) it had to be a mini meal that included protein, vegetables and fat. When a snack had to be a mini meal I would often decide to wait until the next meal. I was very surprised at the weight loss, but it may have had something to do with cutting out all dairy,sugar,grain,processed food and alcohol for thirty days. I felt very good on it, but it is not something you can sustain - way too hard.

It is now breakfast time after a fast day, and I thought I would be hungry, but I am not. I think I will wait until I feel hungry to eat something...

hello! FD4 here today...not such a sucess. Finished eating last night at 7pm, and didn't eat lunch until 2pm...unfortunately it was a mozzerella and sundried tomato ciabatta. quite sure it was at least 500 cal for just that. was planning to have only a cup of tea when i got home, but my house guests bought steak for us all...can't refuse filet mignon ever. i love steak with a passion. not sure when i can do another fast day, possibly Sunday, although that means the Monday fast can't happen either...

Hopeful

Of course Dr Varady favours the IF version she has been working on for 10 years !

She was angry that Dr Mosely partly used her ADF studies to justify 5:2, because they are different protocols and hence it is not great science to do so.
In fairness, ADF is the only IF version with many human trials and she is responsible for most of them. There are only a couple for 5:2, by Michelle Harvey.

We know anecdotally 5:2 has worked for thousands of people, for most of those who have seriously tried it.
The US National Institute of Health invested millions in her studies. I wish the NHS or The Medical Research Council here would invest the same in 5:2.

5:2 is the gentlest form of IF, so less likely to over-stress the body. Most of us on this thread prefer it. We have heard reports of some people being over-stressed by it or by 16:8.
However, Varady reports some 5:2ers who ate too much on the 5 NFDs (the usual reason for failure) did better on ADF.

Possibly the best version of IF - ADF / 4:3 / 5:2 / fast 5 / 16:8 - is different for different people, depending on their state of health, age, amount of exercise, stress at work or in their private life etc.

bigchoc Thank you so much for giving us highlights of Varady's book, certainly plenty to think about. Out of interest are you currently 5:2ing or ADFing?

gum interesting point about making snacks more meal-like - and therefore just waiting for an actual meal rather than snacking; I might pinch that concept. Once I'm back at work (in a school), I find that I'm now naturally inclined to small lunches, which means I'm pretty hungry at 4pm, I often end up eating something then instead of waiting until 6 when we eat as a family. I need to make a change to my day in some way so I don't end up pigging out then .

How did yesterday's new starters get on? How are you feeling now?

I just did a weigh in and yesterday's fast and activities shifted 2.5lbs of the Christmas extra 6. It's not 'real' weight when it's put on so quickly. Now for 3 non fast days!

Thanks for the interesting and informative points many of you are making. A lot to think about.

Is anyone keeping track of their body fat? I have a fancy set of scales, but no idea how to use them.

Not long up. It's now 34 hours since I last ate and I'm not hungry! Lost 1.2lb, so I am now lighter than I was before the Christmas splurge. Only 6 and a half pounds away from my weight last April, which was my all time low since the birth of my DD2.

Planning scrambled egg and bacon whenever I feel hungry and a lovely roast veg. lasagne with a side of dauphinois potatoes for evening meal. I'm with you on the 3 non fast days betsy!

well I didnt think I had done too well but I got through it, I was an angry lady all day though, dh thought it was the fast and was going to suggest that it wasnt going to work until he got home and after five mins asked if the dc had been like that all day and no wonder I was grunpy (still catching up from nye I think). Anyway I managed about 650 in the end, the scales this morning say 2lb down but that cant possbly be right can it?

Phew ! Made it till breakfast . Thanks for asking Betsy Bell. I really am hungry . And though I did drink a lot I'm really thirsty this morning. Very strange !
Now on 4 NFDs . Thanks heavens. My next problem is understanding what I can and can't do on these days. I don't want to indo all that hard work by eating madly. Though to be honest I really do feel like it !

I went on MFP to get help with calories - thinking I could manage to not go beyond 2000 or something like that. But, after I put in my details, saying that I wanted to lose weight it's now told me I've got to stick at 1200 cals. I'll never manage that and I can't face reading a load of negative feedback at the end of the day, But I don't know how to change that and it has given me until February like that.
I really have appreciated the support for my FD and I'm sure I'm going to need it next time - which will be next Tuesday for me, Thanks to all who have asked and given helpful suggestions.
It is true about the hunger coming in waves. I found it difficult through the night because of that. But remembering those words helped me to calm down and ride the wave.
I also loved the description of being so hungry that you could eat your arm off. I really felt like that. But, luckily didn't fancy the taste.

Looking forward to reading you.