Parenting a (possibly) musical kid

[TreeAtMyWindow]

Long time lurker on the music threads here, coming out of the woodwork to ask for advice.

My daughter (7) loves music. She plays two instruments, because when I gave her a choice and she demanded both, I thought she’d drop one in time. She hasn’t. Reports from her music teachers are glowing. When she gets the chance to be in a talent show or try other instruments, she’s super-engaged. At a have-a-go-at-brass day in the autumn she picked up a cornet and immediately played a scale, then went off and did something on the tenor horn that impressed its keeper (playing high notes? Or low notes? I’m not sure).

We’ve been bumbling along for two years, with me, her totally non-musical mother, thinking that she’s no prodigy, but she’s doing well. Last weekend I visited a friend whose kid (8) has had five piano lessons, and is doing so well. He’s halfway through the second book (different series than my kid is using), reading music and playing confidently with two hands. It took way longer for DD to get to that point! So now I’m questioning whether she’s doing as well as I thought. Neither teacher has suggested she takes an exam, which is fine, because I don’t really have money for an exam, but looking it up, she’s playing some pieces which are on the grade one recorder syllabus. She isn’t for piano.

I realise it doesn’t matter if she’s good or not, as long as she’s enjoying it. But it’s relevant to decision making. Like, she seems to do worse on the big piano at her lessons than on her little keyboard at home, and if that’s holding her back, maybe I should get a proper piano, but if it’s just for fun, having something that fits in my little house is a big plus.

Another complicating factor is that she says very confidently that she’s going to be a chorister. At first I tried to manage expectations, then one of the kids she knew from music school became a chorister! So it just seems totally achievable to her, and I feel that if she’s not that musical, I should be getting out in front of the inevitable disappointment.

And finally, my friend with the talented kid pointed out that an orchestral instrument would be much more useful for independent school scholarships than the piano and recorder. I looked up the scholarship information, and they say they should be at grade 5, but I have no idea whether she’s likely to reach that!

I know I could ask her teachers, but tbh I think if I ask, ‘will my 7 year old get grade 5 by age 10?’ they’ll just say, ‘I don’t know, it depends how hard she works.’ And if I ask, ‘is my kid musical?’ they’ll say, ‘yes, I wrote “she is very musical” in her report, did you not read it?’ What I really need is an idea of what normal progress looks like, and how good you have to be for things like choristerships and scholarships. Are those really for only the super-talented? And how do you choose a direction? She wants to do everything, including join a brass band, singing, and take up several more instruments she truly doesn’t have time for. I clearly need to provide some guidance, but I don’t have a clue what I’m doing.

Sorry for the essay. Any advice appreciated.

I gave my godson bagpipes for Christmas one year - his parents are re-evaluating the wisdom of their choice 😂

Impressed with the £600 one @TriceratopsRocks I looked for second hand, but didn’t really know enough about it and didn’t know any harpists. Didn’t want to make an expensive mistake!

We also looked second hand for ages - at all the lever harp makers that were considered reputable. But after the many hours of videos and reviews I went through, in the end we opted for a Muzikkon McHugh harp. It looks and sounds beautiful, the shop were incredibly helpful over the phone, and we got a discount because DD is a school pupil (that covered the shipping cost over from Ireland). There were also some extra customs fees to pay later, which I should have added on to the cost but forgot about when I posted earlier. I can also vouch for their after-care. They have been fantastically helpful after purchase too. I know I sound like an advert, but if anyone is thinking of a harp, I'd recommend them.

😂

Flute first...then bassoon. Didn't seem to find it a problem though apparently they aren't a common combination. She'd quite like a sax now - most of the flautists at her school play one - as do the bassoonists.

I came to look for advice regarding electric pianos, but got sidetracked.

Recorder is a lovely instrument. You can relative easily play and buy at reasonable price a collection of descant to bass recorders. You don't have to be a prodigy to join NYRO.

I was quite sad DD abandoned it for oboe....

Anyway hunting for piano continues.

@TriceratopsRocks The cathedral website says that they audition in year 3 and join at the beginning of year 4. DD is in year 2 currently, so I think we've got some time. I'd like to leave contacting them until after the chorister day (which I think is usually in the autumn), because if she isn't wildly enthusiastic at that point, there's no reason to go any further.

I'm envious of all you parents of harp players. I bet they sound beautiful. The harp, however, is not on the table, so to speak.

@Wronginformation I rather like the idea of collecting larger and smaller recorders. She might have to grow a bit for some of those, though!

The national youth recorder orchestra organise recorder days and recorder residential camps. I think well worth it if you can find one near where you live.

Knowing the timetable for relevant chorister auditions is definitely helpful! I remember when DS was in year 1, discovering by chance that the choir he was interested in (already being at the school) had just moved their auditions from year 3 to year 2 which startled me slightly at the time. DD auditioned in year 3 and again in year 4 for hers. The girls' opportunities near us now, audition in year 2 and year 3 respectively though possibly with some flexibility. If you attend a chorister open day in the autumn, you may well find the next step is to organise an informal meeting with the choirmaster which may help you manage expectations either way.

Do ask her current music teachers what they think. I teach violin, and remember when one of my students auditioned for a choir, her parents were really surprised she got in and I was, well, I'm not surprised at all.

I love hearing that your daughter is being encouraged on making her own music and really building her musicianship that way.

The other thing that sounds promising - your comment about her speaking up in the school nativity. DDs choirmaster's line on "could my child be a chorister?" was "are they the child you can hear from the school gate?" ...

My impression is that very "shouty" singing often happens because younger children are given stuff to sing that is actually too low for them to find their "singing voices" easily, and then encouraged to "sing out". Why not try asking her if she can sing a song she likes, a bit higher, and see what happens?

Good luck navigating a suitable route forward - sounds like lots of things are very possible for her. Recorder is both a great "gateway" instrument and a good option in its own right.

Ah I hadn't read all pages yesterday and just found TriceratopsRocks's post about just what I was looking for portable piano.
(Was looking for DD who is also off to uni).
...and also saw NYRO had already been recommended...

As a mediocre viola player, the main difficulty is reading in alto clef, which pretty much no other instrument normally uses and is a bit of a headache to pick up especially if you've already learned treble and bass clefs eg for piano. I did grade 6 and still couldn't have told you the name of the notes I was playing without stopping and calculating, I just got to know that blob means this finger position. There's much less choice of music available unless you play treble clef music written for other instruments and ignore half of the instrument, or transpose it yourself. They sound nearly as bad as violins when played by beginners, not as high pitched admittedly but louder. For me I think I like it as my singing voice is low so it feels like I can relate to viola better than violin. You really can get in to lots of groups with one, but it does feel a bit embarrassing being surrounded by far superior musicians at times! Google viola player jokes.

I think the really important thing is to consider the tone/sound of the instrument and the style of the music it plays and the groups it sits in, does your daughter enjoy that music, like hearing those groups, want to make that sound. Eg. Brass players are louder people in general than woodwind in my experience. Don't rule out percussion either. Make sure lessons/groups joined are oriented to the styles of music they're interested in and enjoy. Speaking from experience of hopping across loads of instruments and never finding the right one despite having musical ability.

Most cities and larger towns have chorister opportunities. If you tell me roughly where you are I can guide you. There are a handful of boarding full scholarship opportunities available still but most robed choristers are d ordinary schools and practice after school one or two evenings a week then two services on Sundays, pretty full on. Both my DD's were choristers, one is now professional.

Would also add to make sure that she actually likes and enjoys group singing. Some kids love the idea of blending their voices to make an amazing sound - some really do not!

My DD is first and foremost a singer and has always hated group singing - does it occasionally because it's good practice - but she only really likes being a soloist. And it's fine to be that (just harder to find opportunities and training and more expensive).

Also we have found that it's much harder to find opportunities if your child is not interested in classical music. There are stacks of orchestras, ensembles etc around and all the big music schools are very focused in that direction. The offer for those who are interested in contemporary pop from a very young age is much more limited and I've had to really work hard to find them (and they're almost always aimed at much older teens, or they're not on a par with the classical equivalents). So don't let them near pop or rock if you want an easy life!

Following with interest. My just turned 6 year old DD has (according to her music teacher) a talent for music. My DH and I don’t and are completely at sea on this stuff.

She asked to learn to play the piano at 5, had about 10 lessons by which time she could read music. But then her piano teacher moved and we haven’t found a new one. She can still sit at a piano and work out simple tunes on her own. I am too busy to look much harder for a new teacher and was thinking of waiting until she could do lessons at school (aged 7 I think) but occasionally worry this is too late. I feel guilty but not sure what else to do.

She does already have string instrument lessons at school. So maybe that’s enough? No idea and hoping some music teachers or musicians will come on here with advice!

Looks good. She's not old enough yet, but I'll see if it's a possibility next year.

@LuckyOrMaybe If they change the dates here, she'll miss the boat entirely. Fingers crossed. As far as the shouty songs go, they don't seem to be low ones, particularly, although she generally gets lower when she does shout. They've just started singing in assembly, and she does a dance class called 'Music Theatre and Street Dance Mash Up' (chosen entirely because it was the only non-exam-focussed dance option), where they usually come out yelling a Disney song. I suspect in both they're concentrating more on confidence than anything. She's generally tuneful if she is content to be a bit quieter, although with some Matilda songs she decided to sing recently she asked me to find the music so she could test it on the piano when she was unsure. But yes, making herself heard isn't a problem, it's good to know that's a skill that's useful for something!

@violaowner This week she's decided she likes Linkin Park. Not sure the council music service is going to accommodate that! I took her to hear The Nutcracker played on an organ, and thought it was hideous (possibly the worst thing to choose to play!) and she loved it. She's always surprising me. I see your point about the viola. I suppose if she loves it a new clef will be worth it to her, but it does sound like a faff.

@mitogoshi Thank you. We're very much in a cathedral town, so I'm able to find the information. The school where they educate the choristers offers boarding, but I don't think it's expected if you live in the city. I'm sure there are churches with choirs nearby too, but TBH I don't want to give up our current Sunday morning activities unless I have to.

I wouldn’t worry too much about alto clef. A third clef isn’t that hard to learn if she can do treble and bass (I needed tenor clef as well as bass & treble for cello, and it was fine)

@OhCrumbsWhereNow That's actually a really interesting point. When she was 3 and 4 I used to be part of a singing group (not a very good one, I won't lie). She would listen to me learning the songs at home happily, but I couldn't take her to the group because sometimes we'd start a song and she'd get really upset and tell us to stop singing. Then try to leave. And we weren't that bad. I wonder if it was something to do with us as a group. And yes, it's odd what's catered for and what isn't. Classical music and drama I can access easily, for example, but if she was a talented dancer I'd be spending immense sums. The local music centre has early music and folk groups as well as the orchestra, so I guess I just hope she goes in one of those directions.

@StrawberryEater I have a theory that reading music is easier to learn when you're also learning to read. My DD overtook me within a term.

Are your DD's string lessons ones where she's expected to practice at home, or just school ones? Because I will say that having a child learning two instruments is time consuming. Ten minutes a day doesn't sound like much, but it's ten minutes of playing, not faffing around finding the music and adjusting the seat and playing a tune from another book for fun and telling a parent about the preferred fingering for a note and playing all the notes in this key signature forwards then backwards. We didn't get to reading her book from school tonight before bedtime. Given how fast the 8 year old I mentioned at the start of the thread has progressed, 7 can't possibly be too late.

I've loved our local music centre for lessons, but YMMV. I like that I can actually talk to the teacher, ask for clarification of things I don't understand, etc. In an ideal world, I think I'd have stuck with general musicality lessons for a bit longer. In fact, that's what I was trying to attend when she was offered instrument lessons and everything started to snowball! Hopefully some more expert advice will be here for you soon.

@TreeAtMyWindow - let's hope it wasn't some kind of judgment on your singing! With hindsight I should probably have noticed what DD2 was like when she used to run from the room screaming when the beginner clarinets played at DD1s primary school concerts. However, I was more focussed on my own incredible embarrassment and trying to catch a badly-behaved toddler. And to be honest, if many of us were less inhibited we might have done the same.

When DD2 was five or so, I realised that when we were singing at church - we go to one with very modern music and choruses - she would use her hand to indicate the pitch she was singing at - moving it up and down all the time. I think she'd seen someone do that at a festival where they were teaching group singing. Even now I watch her hand twitching up and down in choir when she's sight-reading - conductors probably wonder what she's doing!

Not sure if I'm repeating what other people have said, but re chorister life, she and you have to be sure it's what you REALLY want.

DS was a chorister for four years, and fortunately for us and him absolutely adored every second, but he is just all music to the exclusion of every other interest.

A lot of other children struggled with the commitment. Hour-long rehearsals nearly every day, sometimes twice, services four or five times a week, EVERY Christmas and EVERY Easter fully committed to singing in services. It isn't optional, and it's very hard to get out of once you're in.

Re clefs, don't let that put you off the viola. If it's the only clef she's ever read, it will make no difference, and TBH I found it no problem at all reading the tenor clef, as well as treble and bass. The notes almost go in the eyes and out the fingers, bypassing any brain processing at all!

@minisnowballs Thinking about it, that was one of the few places she's been where the singers weren't all doing the same thing. At assembly, etc, everyone just sings the song, but at my group we sometimes spilt into soprano/alto/etc and had slightly different parts. I wish I could remember whether it was those ones she objected to. But it really may have been our singing! I wish I could have run screaming from the beginner French horn that was present at one of DD's performances - I couldn't hear DD anyway, or anyone except the horn player, in fact.

Isn't it funny how they pick things up? At least moving your hands with the pitch is vaguely musical. My DD often swings her feet out of time with the music when she plays recorder, and it's painful to watch.

@StrawberryEater - If she can read basic music there are some great books she could work through by herself. Ten Tunes for Ten Fingers I think they're called.

DS started teaching himself with these when he was about 8. He refused any teaching from me!

@herbaceous It does sound like a lot. At the moment I have a hard boundary that there will be no extra-curricular activities on Sundays, which clearly wouldn't be sustainable! So much of the answer to whether the commitment it worth it depends on how much my DD wants it. I have my reservations about the school that choristers go to, as well, but I'll I think I'm going to cross these bridges if we come to them.

I'm wondering whether we live in the same place!

My experience is with York Minster, but most other big cathedrals would be similar. Places like Ripon or Beverley I think have a less arduous commitment.

Church choirs are often on the lookout for child singers. It's a great musical education, often a high standard, free, and a lovely sense of community. But, obviously, Sundays!