Parenting a (possibly) musical kid

[TreeAtMyWindow]

Long time lurker on the music threads here, coming out of the woodwork to ask for advice.

My daughter (7) loves music. She plays two instruments, because when I gave her a choice and she demanded both, I thought she’d drop one in time. She hasn’t. Reports from her music teachers are glowing. When she gets the chance to be in a talent show or try other instruments, she’s super-engaged. At a have-a-go-at-brass day in the autumn she picked up a cornet and immediately played a scale, then went off and did something on the tenor horn that impressed its keeper (playing high notes? Or low notes? I’m not sure).

We’ve been bumbling along for two years, with me, her totally non-musical mother, thinking that she’s no prodigy, but she’s doing well. Last weekend I visited a friend whose kid (8) has had five piano lessons, and is doing so well. He’s halfway through the second book (different series than my kid is using), reading music and playing confidently with two hands. It took way longer for DD to get to that point! So now I’m questioning whether she’s doing as well as I thought. Neither teacher has suggested she takes an exam, which is fine, because I don’t really have money for an exam, but looking it up, she’s playing some pieces which are on the grade one recorder syllabus. She isn’t for piano.

I realise it doesn’t matter if she’s good or not, as long as she’s enjoying it. But it’s relevant to decision making. Like, she seems to do worse on the big piano at her lessons than on her little keyboard at home, and if that’s holding her back, maybe I should get a proper piano, but if it’s just for fun, having something that fits in my little house is a big plus.

Another complicating factor is that she says very confidently that she’s going to be a chorister. At first I tried to manage expectations, then one of the kids she knew from music school became a chorister! So it just seems totally achievable to her, and I feel that if she’s not that musical, I should be getting out in front of the inevitable disappointment.

And finally, my friend with the talented kid pointed out that an orchestral instrument would be much more useful for independent school scholarships than the piano and recorder. I looked up the scholarship information, and they say they should be at grade 5, but I have no idea whether she’s likely to reach that!

I know I could ask her teachers, but tbh I think if I ask, ‘will my 7 year old get grade 5 by age 10?’ they’ll just say, ‘I don’t know, it depends how hard she works.’ And if I ask, ‘is my kid musical?’ they’ll say, ‘yes, I wrote “she is very musical” in her report, did you not read it?’ What I really need is an idea of what normal progress looks like, and how good you have to be for things like choristerships and scholarships. Are those really for only the super-talented? And how do you choose a direction? She wants to do everything, including join a brass band, singing, and take up several more instruments she truly doesn’t have time for. I clearly need to provide some guidance, but I don’t have a clue what I’m doing.

Sorry for the essay. Any advice appreciated.

Hmm, does 8 yr old already play another instrument? That does sound like quick work learning to read music and play hands together. There's little benefit in comparison though and enthusiasm is worth a huge amount at this young age.

I do wonder if the keyboard is causing your DD issues piano-wise, the different size and touch can be confusing. Even very small kids can play a full sized piano, they won't be doing big chords that require them to stretch their hands for a long time down the road.

Definitely try for that choristership. How difficult to get in really depends on the choir in question and what's involved - the prestigious choir schools get a lot of applications and can be more fussy, but others are "just" looking for ability to sing in tune, enthusiasm and teachability. And if she gets in it's a fabulous education in general musicianship and will help her instrumental learning no end.

If you're thinking about scholarships OP, piano is pretty much useless for that, but IMO it's essential for developing as a musician. My DD keeps it as her fourth instrument even though we really struggle for practice time. So the decision here is scholarships practicality vs love for the instrument vs long term objectives in music education.

Expected standards vary greatly depending on the school and instrument. I know children who got scholarships with G4 wind/brass. For specialist music schools and junior departments of conservatoires, my DD played G8 for her 2nd study violin at age 10 and she didn't get an offer. I would start from the schools you have in mind and ask them and parents who got their children there on scholarships, and also parents who didn't.

Oboe/bassoon/euphonium/viola/bass will get you lots of places (NCO is always desperate for bassoons and oboes) but will your DD like playing any of them?

Progress depends on 1)aptitude 2)teaching 3)productive practice, with aptitude/talent being the least important if we're not talking about international star soloists. So comparing your DD progress to other children's would tell nothing about her ability - at this age and level it has more to do with teaching and practice. For example, I would question why, after two years of studies, she is not required to play scales as part of daily practice. For wind/brass players scales not just help playing in tune and with quality sound, but also expand the range. It takes a long time and her recorder teacher should have been encouraging that.

You asked if it's realistic to achieve G5 by 11+ deadlines, starting from G0 (assuming piano is not a scholarship instrument and brass/wind would be better than recorder so your DD would need to pick up an orchestral instrument and start from the scratch). It is doable for sure, I know children who went from G3 to G6 on the violin within a year which is a really hard work, much harder than brass, and they did it without two hours of daily practice. For brass, young children cannot practise more than 30-40 minutes anyway, it's physically exhausting. Your DD would need a very good teacher though to do five grades in three years - my DD did it on the piano, and it was all down to her teacher.

One thing no one on the thread mentioned is that parenting a musical child is a very tedious marathon run. Irrespective of talent, there has to be practice every day, and in my experience few children are organised enough to do it by themselves. I'm not a musician and my DD has been studying music for a few years now, but I still have to sit in lessons, take notes and then remind her which bars her teachers want her to improve. Children love playing the pieces through, it's fun but it's not productive practice. So I would suggest asking yourself if you are prepared to be in all this for a very long time. Especially as you have a little one who has her own interests and activities. Choristers are even worse, it's a very regimented life, my DD is a chorister - not at a cathedral, she sings only three days a week and four major services at Christmas and Easter, but even this part-time commitment is not easy to fit in if a child also plays instruments and needs to do lots of concerts around the same time.

Sorry for the long read, I hope it's useful.

IMO it's essential for developing as a musician.

Conversely, I managed to get through a music degree never having had a piano lesson in my life!

There's an early music group at her music school which she could join, with junior and senior sections, so I think she could keep playing the recorder if she wants to. I suppose that only works if she actually likes early music, though.

@minisnowballs that sounds more affordable. I shall just have to ask the teacher what I'll need to spend, if the bassoon makes its way onto the table.

Although for us, whilst we have had the occasional tears and frustration around earlier exams and occasional nerves before competitions, parenting our musically minded children is a joy and privilege. Yes, this year's holidays are totally planned around concerts, but that's a fun thing. I've never sat in on lessons but appreciate that if you're not so musical that helps. Parental involvement is a big indicator of development, whether knowledgeable or not. This is why free lessons often don't 'succeed' if parents aren't on board.

@thirdfiddle No other instrument, but he is bright and has a good memory. He also has the benefit of two parents who used to play piano, and grandparents who bought him a proper piano. To be fair, while I was super impressed with his playing, he doesn't seem very strong on other things (which is normal after 5 lessons!). My DD can easily play the same tune in another key, for example, and while he can play the notes, he often makes mistakes telling you what they were - there was a lot of confusion when he tried to teach her a tune without sheet music and he insisted it started on H (it was A).

She has a kind of mini-piano, but the keys are normal piano key sized, there are just fewer of them. She hasn't run out of keys yet. She complains that other pianos are 'clunky' and 'bouncy' so I think the weighted keys are becoming an issue. And her position is different because it's lower.

I get the impression the choir is quite prestigious. I think I've seen photos of them meeting the King. It's a small city, though, so perhaps they aren't overwhelmed with applicants. She may as well try, if she would like to.

If she wants to be a chorister look into the Royal School of Church Music. You're up north, how easy would it be to get to York?

https://www.rscm.org.uk/events/rscm-young-voices-festival-york/

@horseymum @TreeAtMyWindow I agree that doing music with children has been (mostly) a joy for us... Seeing what makes your children come alive is wonderful - whether it is music, sport, poetry, art or dance. That doesn't mean it doesn't involve some boredom, financial outlay and time - at the moment that sacrifice feels huge with DD2 a hundred miles for us. But any hobby can be a way of connecting with your children - why not music! I'm usually just glad it's not swimming, which seems to be very early in the morning!

Also, I wouldn't get stressed about exams at her age. My school was very exam-focused and wanted children to be doing a grade a year. I have to suppress my inner pushy parent because my child (who her teachers say is very musical) is not doing much in the way of grade progress, but that is because her teacher is working on music theory and improvising with her, which she actually enjoys and he says will make her a much better musician in the long run.

"Expected standards vary greatly depending on the school and instrument. I know children who got scholarships with G4 wind/brass. For specialist music schools and junior departments of conservatoires, my DD played G8 for her 2nd study violin at age 10 and she didn't get an offer."

my piano teacher studied at the RCM and most definitely did not have a second instrument at g8 at 11, having only started her primary (flute) at around that age so I would say to take that comment with a pinch of salt.

@Ubertomusic She's currently quite enthusiastic about the viola, I think because one of my friends played. She's said DD can have a go next time we visit. Double bass she brings up sometimes, but to be honest, living in a small house and not having a car, it doesn't seem like the most practical option.

She does make noticeably more progress when a musical friend is visiting and helps out with practice time, but that may also be about feeling special when she gets their attention. She isn't set scales, but she does seem to know a few on the piano. I don't think they've ever been mentioned for the recorder. To be honest, with lessons only 15 minutes long (a bit less for piano, because she's scheduled for two consecutive slots so loses the walking time between rooms), and only in term time, there isn't a lot of time. Maybe they just never get to them.

I hear you about the commitment. She's a very active kid who wants to be doing things all the time, though, so I think one way or another we're going to be busy. I hope her sister shares her interests, or it is going to be difficult.

This would be perfect if she were a year older. I'll keep them in mind in future.

@TreeAtMyWindow after your comment about the small city/choir meeting the King I'm wondering if you live near me 😂 although to be fair, many cathedral cities are small and lots of choirs have probably met him. In the last year alone I've stood in a royal receiving line twice!

@minisnowballs @horseymum I think she's going to be very into something, she's that kind of personality, and I'm also glad it's not swimming. Or football, which seems to involve a lot of standing around in the cold. And as for stress, her classmates' ballet exams caused untold stress about practice and hairstyles, and lots of money spent on extra 1:1 lessons, which I was very glad not to be a part of.

The same here. It is a joy to have seen her really find her place at school, she spends all her time in the music department and our home is full of music. She has only really started her musical journey in year 7 and is halfway through year 9. Her life revolves around two choirs, orchestra, string group, writing her own compositions, watching YouTuber flautists, theory club, all her instrument lessons and playing her flute endlessly at home, the piano and viola practice are rather harder to get her to do.

we play together and will be performing together next week in our local festival. Whether she pursues it as a career doesn't really matter, I'm just so pleased she has found something she loves so much.

regrettably (and happily for me) she decided she had had enough of swimming this year so now more early mornings 3 days a week !

I was just making the point that certain string instruments (and piano) and certain places require higher standard so it all depends. If OP decides in a few years' time she wants her musical DD to audition for Chetham's for example as they are in Manchester area, then they will need higher grades compared to auditioning for a scholarship at a local school.

Brass is usually more relaxed (not for trumpets though). Wind - not for flutes. So yes, you can get in with lower grades on 2nd study if you're oboe/bassoon etc. Though my impression was that pianists at RCM focus just on the piano - it's extremely competitive, RCM is demanding and piano only gets harder and harder the further you go, unlike the violin.

Taking exams is not necessary, it's the standard of your technique, range etc they are assessing, not your certificates. It is possible to be nearly tone deaf and have your grade exams with Merit.

@TreeAtMyWindow Yes, bass is a pain, but when we visited RCM open day, they almost begged everyone to apply :)) I'm sure this happens at other places too.

We live in a small terraced house too but a musical child will fill any house with instruments eventually 😂

Singing and strings usually go together well so being a chorister with a viola will work wonders (sadly my DD refused to learn the viola).

Both my DSs were brass players, encouraged by me as a French Horn player in my school days. Both started with trumpets when their front teeth came in. DS1 was asked to try a French Horn after about a year as he has good pitch and the teacher knew I had been involved in the instrument in the past. I was reluctant at first as I knew how expensive they were and how difficult. My son loves it though and we had to shell out for a second hand one after a couple of years at a cost of about £3k. The borrowed ine from the music service was awful. They both loved their instruments but my FH son has definitely had more opportunities as his instrument was so sought after. It seemed like the whole music community in the county knew where he was and he would be invited to all kinds of events. The double horn is fiendishly difficult but once you have mastered it, there are no limitations. My son has played in jazz bands and big bands by transposing the trombone music for his horn. He even played at Ronnie Scott's doing that, much to their surprise !

@Sluj Interesting, I was reading on the thread that FH is in demand, but I'm seeing massive horn sections these days here in the south. Lots of competitive parents rushed into it particularly for this reason, to get places everywhere, so it looks like it's not a sure bet anymore. Perhaps it's different in the north. How difficult is it to transpose from trombone? Our FH friend wants to join a brass band but she's not confident with transposition.

My DS is in his twenties now so maybe it's not so rare any more, there was definitely a campaign to recruit horns, oboes and bassoons at the time.
I think the transposition got easier the more he did it but quite a skill to have. This is in addition to remembering the correct fingerings for both sides of the French horn. He does have a quick scientific mind and a great memory fortunately. Practice is key for transposing.

I'd get a proper piano. Or good electronic one with weighted keys.

Then talk to her teacher about doing grades. I'd start with grade one rather than the pre-grade one exam. Unless her teacher thinks she can go in at a higher grade. Most don't do grade 5 before secondary so she'd have to be really talented and you'd need to pressure her which wouldn'tbe a good idea if she loves music.

An orchestral instrument would be useful as its different from playing piano. You can play with others. Did the brass taster give her any ideas. I'm pretty sure some brass instruments are more in demand than violin or flute/clarinet. You need to establish what teachers are available

Singing lessons instead could be a good idea.

Bear in mind that teachers and the people on the instrument day will all be super encouraging and say she's doing well.

I suppose it's the sort of thing that kings like to do!

Will just add that you do not need to do exams at all if you don't want to.

We found they were a terrible idea for DD. She got distinctions in the ones she did but got very het up on pieces all having to be grade levels and she couldn't play x because it was higher or lower grade than where she currently was.

We ditched them completely and she's made far more progress since. It made no difference to her getting scholarships either. We have been asked to state approximate grade levels and that has been more than enough.

I will echo some other posters about parental involvement. I've always sat in on lessons initially, and with her main study I am still there every week after 8 years (not in the room) and all her teachers give me a debrief after every lesson and notes for practice. I am not particularly musical myself so hasn't been easy - but less mud and vets bills than many other extras!

@Ubertomusic @Sluj I don't think the piano is going to be her passion. She's very sociable, and the piano isn't, really. She's enjoying it, but she'd need something alongside it. I wasn't really looking to places like Chet's, we're on the other side of the Pennines, so it's more about local schools. I think there's a scheme in a nearby city at the weekends for advanced children but I don't know much about it.

I'd like to avoid the most competitive instruments, not just because of the playing opportunities, but because is isn't particularly motivated by competition. I think she might feel a bit stressed in a host of violins, in a way she wouldn't in a handful of violas.

I suspect I'm not seeing the most savvy parents pushing for French horns where I am. In the beginner section at the orchestra, which accepts pretty much any instrument pre-grade one, I've seen flutes, several violins and cellos, one bass, and a single French horn.