Parenting a (possibly) musical kid

[TreeAtMyWindow]

Long time lurker on the music threads here, coming out of the woodwork to ask for advice.

My daughter (7) loves music. She plays two instruments, because when I gave her a choice and she demanded both, I thought she’d drop one in time. She hasn’t. Reports from her music teachers are glowing. When she gets the chance to be in a talent show or try other instruments, she’s super-engaged. At a have-a-go-at-brass day in the autumn she picked up a cornet and immediately played a scale, then went off and did something on the tenor horn that impressed its keeper (playing high notes? Or low notes? I’m not sure).

We’ve been bumbling along for two years, with me, her totally non-musical mother, thinking that she’s no prodigy, but she’s doing well. Last weekend I visited a friend whose kid (8) has had five piano lessons, and is doing so well. He’s halfway through the second book (different series than my kid is using), reading music and playing confidently with two hands. It took way longer for DD to get to that point! So now I’m questioning whether she’s doing as well as I thought. Neither teacher has suggested she takes an exam, which is fine, because I don’t really have money for an exam, but looking it up, she’s playing some pieces which are on the grade one recorder syllabus. She isn’t for piano.

I realise it doesn’t matter if she’s good or not, as long as she’s enjoying it. But it’s relevant to decision making. Like, she seems to do worse on the big piano at her lessons than on her little keyboard at home, and if that’s holding her back, maybe I should get a proper piano, but if it’s just for fun, having something that fits in my little house is a big plus.

Another complicating factor is that she says very confidently that she’s going to be a chorister. At first I tried to manage expectations, then one of the kids she knew from music school became a chorister! So it just seems totally achievable to her, and I feel that if she’s not that musical, I should be getting out in front of the inevitable disappointment.

And finally, my friend with the talented kid pointed out that an orchestral instrument would be much more useful for independent school scholarships than the piano and recorder. I looked up the scholarship information, and they say they should be at grade 5, but I have no idea whether she’s likely to reach that!

I know I could ask her teachers, but tbh I think if I ask, ‘will my 7 year old get grade 5 by age 10?’ they’ll just say, ‘I don’t know, it depends how hard she works.’ And if I ask, ‘is my kid musical?’ they’ll say, ‘yes, I wrote “she is very musical” in her report, did you not read it?’ What I really need is an idea of what normal progress looks like, and how good you have to be for things like choristerships and scholarships. Are those really for only the super-talented? And how do you choose a direction? She wants to do everything, including join a brass band, singing, and take up several more instruments she truly doesn’t have time for. I clearly need to provide some guidance, but I don’t have a clue what I’m doing.

Sorry for the essay. Any advice appreciated.

There aren't many very young French Horn players, most seem to be handpicked to move on from a trumpet or cornet once their pitch ability has been established and they have good lip control. Its more about embouchure with a horn and the fingerings are the same for several notes so they need to be able to pitch it with lips and breathing.
Trumpets are a good place to start and my other DS had great fun with his. In truth my horn playing son picks up his trumpet more often than the horn nowadays. Easier access to music and instruments.

Brass is perfect for socialising, happy children and parents and lots of fun. Trumpet can be competitive though higher up the grades. My DD plays it - it's a very versatile instrument, and local schools scholarships aplenty, especially for girls, but brass bands etc are not so easy to get into. It could be better in the north I guess as lots of really good brass bands are there.

@ZenNudist @OhCrumbsWhereNow The subject of exams came up for the first time this week! She's on the last tune of her current book, and apparently the next one has Initial and Grade 1 pieces in it. I'm not sure whether exams would motivate or cause stress. Last year, when she finished her grade one theory book, she said she didn't want to start a new book. It turned out she was worried she had to take an exam. So I don't want to pressure her, and the expense is a concern.

An acoustic piano is just such a huge, heavy object to put in a house I don't intend to stay in forever. I don't really know where I'd put it, either, unless I got rid of the sofa. I hear the advice that I need to do something, though. I think unless I get very lucky on the second hand market, it might be a joint Christmas present with my dad.

She came out of the brass day wanting to play the cornet, and upset she didn't get to try to trombone. I mean, you're right that the remit was to recruit members for the band, but they were ordinary players, not people selling their services, so I don't think they were going to go overboard. They teach them in a group once a week and lend them an instrument, I couldn't stretch to an individual teacher.

I kind of hang out nearby with the door open during piano and recorder lessons, because two year olds are just agents of chaos and will cause distraction if I try to get close. I get a general idea what's going on, but not what fingering she should use, for example. I always sit with her while she practises in the evening (but not, like yesterday, when she practised at 6.30am).

OP a digital Yamaha should be enough for a beginner, just make sure you get one with weighted keys. We bought Yamaha P-45 on advice from our teacher from JD and it lasted until grade 5 with no problem. It does feel slightly different to the proper piano still, but if it's OK for JD I guess it's OK generally.

Yes, we're in solid brass band country. The nearest one has three bands as well as lessons for beginners. It's a late finish for the development band, though, she'd be getting to bed at 9pm, so I think she's too young as yet, but I've promised we'll revisit it in September.

Completely agree. My son who is 7 can only play well on a full sized piano, really struggles on the smaller keyboards. I think it's important for them to get a feel for the full size, space permitting!

@TreeAtMyWindow @Lakelandmumofthree If it's any use from a space perspective, ours lives under the sofa and I set it up at practice time. But it depends how you feel about regular weightlifting as it's essentially a bench press.

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by a full sized piano?

She's currently using one of these: https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/JDP-1-Junior-Digital-Piano-by-Gear4music-White/12LR?origin=product-ads&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAivGuBhBEEiwAWiFmYVjy0EEBn3LN21RvYFHVYp_iae8ooRJJOe2s0v1Fl5GAgigWz0KAOxoCIqIQAvD_BwE

It's got the same sized keyed as a normal piano, but fewer of them. She hasn't had a piece yet that asked for more keys. Is it the height of the piano that would be a problem? Or are you using it as a shorthand, to mean one with weighted keys (this is 'touch sensitive')?

Genuinely not trying to be difficult, just need to know what I should care about if we're getting a new one.

Touch sensitive vs weighted https://www.epianos.co.uk/whats-the-difference-between-touch-sensitive-keys-weighted-keys/#:~:text=Weighted%20keys%20also%20respond%20to,touch%20sensitive%20is%20perfectly%20adequate.

What I would say about "rarer" instruments is that they are short of players for a reason, generally because they are really expensive (bassoon) and/or really difficult (oboe, bassoon, French horn). I'm not sure why viola is so in demand because it doesn't cover either of the above - so if you're going to pick an instrument because of its rarity factor leading to more opportunities then that's what we went for. The size of the double bass was very off putting to Dd despite me pushing heavily for it because it gives you jazz as well as orchestra/string group opportunities.
just something to think about - you're looking at £1500 for just an entry level bassoon.... and then you've got to buy reeds and find a teacher, not easy

I think it's absolutely great your daughter has a love for music. If you want to be strategic about things then yes, there are probably ways to help her along the way by choosing certain instruments but to be thinking about this as a career or as a way to access specialised schooling , rather than a hobby seems very premature to me.

The "musical", but not prodigy kids I knew( like me) were sort of grade 5 by 8 ish and never practiced from one week to the next but as an adult some of the people I know who get the most enjoyment out of playing are those who took up wind/ brass instruments much later, even as older teens and regularly play in brass bands etc. That said I did spend a lot of my teenage years involved in music and had a great time with the social side of things.

OP, I had a look at the piano you currently have and if she is to continue it really would be better if you are able to upgrade to one with a fully weighted hammer action. You can get ones that would be a good upgrade for you which aren't too expensive.

When DC went to uni and wanted a cheap, portable piano to take with him, we got:
Casio CDP-S110BK Digital Piano with 88 Weighted Keys, Black amzn.eu/d/gP7LYlD

This is a portable stage piano rather than a piece of furniture but for £300 it's very good. DC plays grade 8+ pieces on it, and says it's not that much different than the Kawaii we have at home (which was 4 times the price about 10 years ago)! Looking at the gear4music website, they have several digital pianos with fully weighted hammer action keys that are not that much more expensive and are also a piece of furniture - more like the one you currently have. They obviously won't be as good as the best models, but will be a significant upgrade for the foreseeable future.

A brass instrument is a good one to choose. My daughter started playing the trombone at 9 and never looked back. She’s a very good player and the opportunities it has opened up for her have been great.
She plays in our local brass band where she started at 10 in the junior band and is now in the senior band. She played in the local youth orchestra as 1st trombone, various ensembles and bands and went to music camps through the school. She has travelled abroad on tour with the youth orchestra and her brass band and taken part in various competitions as a soloist as well as in groups, won trophy’s and cups.
She is now at university, not doing music as she wanted to keep that as a hobby rather than a job, and plays in the university orchestra as 1st trombone and also plays in the jazz orchestra. She can also play cornet, euphonium, ukulele, guitar and a bit of piano.

@StiffyByngsDogBartholomew As she's on a bursary, the music school will lend us an instrument, so the purchase cost isn't a concern in the short to medium term. Whether it will be a good one or not may be a different question, one friend reminisces about the cello with a hole in the side he had from there as a lad.

@iverpickle The specialist schools were brought up by other people on the thread as examples of what their children achieved. There aren't any near me in any case. I was initially asking about scholarships to independent schools, because a friend had asked if I'd thought of moving her onto an orchestral instrument to give her a chance at those.

@TriceratopsRocks Yes, I think this thread is reaching a consensus that the touch sensitive keys aren't good enough. This was a big upgrade from the keyboard the music centre loaned us for the first year, which had a floppy disk drive and stank of smoke. I'm going to ask my dad if he'll go halves on something like the one you linked as a joint Christmas present.

I forgot to mention the chorister thing you talked about - 2 of mine were cathedral choristers, both started between 7.5 and 8. If it's something she enjoys, it's fantastic. It gave mine excellent singing tuition, good friends, discipline and responsibility that they don't get anywhere else at the same age. It's really a job, not a hobby (which is why they get paid for doing it). It also gave them fantastic opportunities - mine had trips abroad, TV broadcasts, meeting royalty etc. My cathedral likes to start a new intake each September, with auditions often completed by around Easter for that year, so now is the time to be looking at your local cathedral website if she really is interested, and getting in touch with the director of music there. Being female, though, it's fine to wait a while as they can often stay in the choir until they reach 18. Be prepared for the amount of time it takes up (ours was light commitment in comparison to some as we were only there 4 times a week), and the fact that it isn't very flexible. You can't just say 'oh I don't feel like it today'. It wasn't a problem for ours to miss rehearsals/services for special occasions, but these special occasions couldn't happen too often. Good luck with it all - music really is one of those things that you can enjoy and participate in all your life, and get a great deal of joy and pleasure from, whatever level you are.

No idea, it's just a traditional wooden piano, approx 100 years old. If I give him a keyboard he's hopeless, seems to need the full width/full sized keys. I'm not remotely musical so your questions are beyond me.

Havn't read the whole thread.....but as an amateur pianist (and not a piano teacher) i would say that no child who wants to learn piano should ever practise on a keyboard. Your comment about her doing better on keyboard than on a proper piano is really saying is she's struggling to develop proper piano technique.

Piano playing is all about controlling volume and tone, you cannot develop that skill with a keyboard, although you will develop awareness of keyboard layout. It is also important to have access to proper pedals as this is another

Proper digital pianos with weighted keys and fixed pedals are fine.

The French horn is the double whammy of difficult and expensive. Guess what my kid picked at the age of 7? 😂
Now aged 20 and at conservatoire, his instrument was second hand but an equivalent new one would set you back £10k. When he was 10 we decided to invest in a double horn for him, we went to the local wind shop who let him try loads and advised us to get one which “will be all the horn you need. Unless you want to be a professional. Haha”. 6 years later that one was traded in for a professional level one. They keep their value very well.

For those worried by expensive instruments though - do bear in mind that these are often the ones available for loan. Just anecdotally my DD has never owned a bassoon - they've always been lent to her and we've never actually had to pay for that as they are so unusual and people want them played.

We have, however, had to buy a flute, and at post grade eight that was pretty pricey - she still doesn't own a piccolo which is an extra outlay that seems expensive. Plus the bassoon lessons were half price, so it's not always the case that the 'expensive' instruments end up cosdting the most.

@minisnowballs did your Dd play bassoon or flute first ? If she did flute first how did she find bassoon ? Dd tried the sax but it was "too noisy" but didn't want to try bassoon which I thought was a real shame

Mine wants to learn the harp 😳

So did one of mine - after about a year of asking we got her one for Christmas (well, all family gave her a joint present). It's a 29 string lever harp, cost £600, and she absolutely loves it. We had a chat with a pro harpist after a concert who said that's what she started learning on. I read and watched loads and loads (and loads!) of harp reviews online before picking one out that was affordable yet still decent, just in case it was another musical 'fad'. But it's not - she plays every day. Playing the piano already really helped - she said it's just the same but you pluck strings instead of pressing keys.

Yup, this is what my DS decided on too!

I questioned his choice (pretty much the only instrument on offer that wasn’t loaned for free) and he said:- “but it’s a traditional Welsh instrument and it’s my dream”! 😂

We hired one to start with, which is a great way to try it out but soon adds up to being quite expensive. The I bought a ‘student harp’ through the Assisted Purchase Instrument Scheme which allows you to buy a new instrument VAT free if it is for use for school lessons. In our case, that meant the LA ordered the instrument and I paid them. Well worth looking into if you end up buying new.

👏 Impressed with the £600 one @TriceratopsRocks I looked for second hand, but didn’t really know enough about it and didn’t know any harpists. Didn’t want to make an expensive mistake!