Parenting a (possibly) musical kid

[TreeAtMyWindow]

Long time lurker on the music threads here, coming out of the woodwork to ask for advice.

My daughter (7) loves music. She plays two instruments, because when I gave her a choice and she demanded both, I thought she’d drop one in time. She hasn’t. Reports from her music teachers are glowing. When she gets the chance to be in a talent show or try other instruments, she’s super-engaged. At a have-a-go-at-brass day in the autumn she picked up a cornet and immediately played a scale, then went off and did something on the tenor horn that impressed its keeper (playing high notes? Or low notes? I’m not sure).

We’ve been bumbling along for two years, with me, her totally non-musical mother, thinking that she’s no prodigy, but she’s doing well. Last weekend I visited a friend whose kid (8) has had five piano lessons, and is doing so well. He’s halfway through the second book (different series than my kid is using), reading music and playing confidently with two hands. It took way longer for DD to get to that point! So now I’m questioning whether she’s doing as well as I thought. Neither teacher has suggested she takes an exam, which is fine, because I don’t really have money for an exam, but looking it up, she’s playing some pieces which are on the grade one recorder syllabus. She isn’t for piano.

I realise it doesn’t matter if she’s good or not, as long as she’s enjoying it. But it’s relevant to decision making. Like, she seems to do worse on the big piano at her lessons than on her little keyboard at home, and if that’s holding her back, maybe I should get a proper piano, but if it’s just for fun, having something that fits in my little house is a big plus.

Another complicating factor is that she says very confidently that she’s going to be a chorister. At first I tried to manage expectations, then one of the kids she knew from music school became a chorister! So it just seems totally achievable to her, and I feel that if she’s not that musical, I should be getting out in front of the inevitable disappointment.

And finally, my friend with the talented kid pointed out that an orchestral instrument would be much more useful for independent school scholarships than the piano and recorder. I looked up the scholarship information, and they say they should be at grade 5, but I have no idea whether she’s likely to reach that!

I know I could ask her teachers, but tbh I think if I ask, ‘will my 7 year old get grade 5 by age 10?’ they’ll just say, ‘I don’t know, it depends how hard she works.’ And if I ask, ‘is my kid musical?’ they’ll say, ‘yes, I wrote “she is very musical” in her report, did you not read it?’ What I really need is an idea of what normal progress looks like, and how good you have to be for things like choristerships and scholarships. Are those really for only the super-talented? And how do you choose a direction? She wants to do everything, including join a brass band, singing, and take up several more instruments she truly doesn’t have time for. I clearly need to provide some guidance, but I don’t have a clue what I’m doing.

Sorry for the essay. Any advice appreciated.

She actually plays the guitar, too. Her dad (we're not together) got her one for Christmas, and I told him I wasn't going to be in charge of lessons for a third instrument. She goes to his house sometimes for a couple of hours at the weekend, and he's teaching her one song, incredibly slowly, on the electric guitar. She has an acoustic here that he gave her, which she gets out now and again.

There's a lot of singing, too, but often quality is sacrificed in the name of volume. Which is particularly unfortunate at the dinner table.

It sounds like your daughter has done really well. Having your teenager obsessing about the guitar sounds much better than some other possibilities!

Thanks for the reccomendations, @ConstantastheNorthernStar and @StiffyByngsDogBartholomew. I don't think an acoustic would be a good idea, we're in a two bed terrace, so our neighbours would be unhappy, even if I could find a spot for it. And I daresay it wouldn't like the damp. I shall look out for a second hand Yamaha or Roland with weighted keys. I think the keys are the issue, she says her teacher's piano is 'clunky'.

@SeriouslyAgain She is in two ensembles. I cleared a bit of space on our Saturday morning and she immediately filled it with keyboard group. I think I'd have preferred a lie in! I think you're probably right about finding the right instrument for her.

Is the keyboard touch sensitive and weighted? If not, it will seriously impede progress.

It's possible to be musical and yet make slower progress if practice isn't right.

She needs to practise 6 days a week on each instrument. 15 minutes minimum, but the more the better.

Most importantly, that practice needs to be effective. Don't just play through pieces, spend most of the time on the hardest bits when learning notes. And focus on whatever the teacher directs once notes are secure (eg dynamics/articulation).

Some experience of performing for others is so helpful. Are there school concerts she can take part in?

If she'd like to be a chorister she needs to be singing in choirs, but please don't get her singing lessons - the Directors of Music much prefer a "blank sheet" to train in their own style.

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By the way, I used to be the one auditioning the prospective music scholars.

I forgot to mention that it's worth chatting to her music teachers about these ambitions and concerns. Ask for their opinion and advice.

Some music services also do ‘try out’ schemes (Bromley do I think?)

I would also encourage her to play an ensemble instrument. Good shout for the rare instruments, the conservatoires are pretty desperate for bassoon and viola in particular. French horn for brass of course.

Not suggesting she has a career plan to go to music college btw! But all ensembles whether amateur or professional are short of these.

Do not compare her standards to other kids,people develop at different stages and depends how hard you work.

It sounds like your daughter has a good ear and natural musical ability so I would encourage a broad approach and if she wants to go for being a choral scholar then let her try.

Just to say I am a professional string player,not a teacher so I’m no expert in education.

I'm an adult singer in a cathedral choir OP, so just to give my perspective regarding vocal trials for a choristership. At our cathedral, the children would be asked to sing a simple song, perhaps a hymn or something grade 1/2 standard. They would also have a vocal range check, maybe a couple of very simple aural tests and crucially they are asked to read a piece of text that they haven't seen before. The children need to be able to read lots of pretty archaic language so it's really important that they can read aloud fluently. I've known children who have all the singing ability there miss out on a place because of the reading.

It sounds like your daughter is really musical and all the instrumental experience she's had so far will set her up well for the aural skills she would need. Chorister life is very disciplined as well but having stuck at two instruments it doesn't sound like that would be an issue for her at all.

It really just depends on the voice, things like can she sing higher up, above a D at the top of the stave, and can she sing quietly higher up as well, can she sing bang in tune. Sometimes children without these particular abilities will get in and their voice will develop as they go if the director thinks they have the potential to be able to do it. I've seen many small choristers who weren't particularly 'good' singers become absolutely amazing by the end of their time in the choir, I think many people assume choristers are outstanding, naturally talented singers at the age of 7 but this is almost always not the case.

If she is really set on this I would look into a 'be a chorister for a day' experience like you said, and perhaps find someone who could prepare her for a voice trial. I've prepared many local children for these, it's just someone to find a song for her to sing and help her practise singing it with accompaniment. It's not essential to do this by any means but if you're not musical it may be easier!

Just from a brass perspective:

There are quite a few brass instruments that can be played in an orchestra, in a wind band and in a brass band.

Trumpets are for orchestras and wind bands and cornets for brass band but they are similar enough that they are basically the same instrument.

Other brass instruments that can be played in all three are trombone (although you need to read different music in orchestra vs brass band) and euphonium and tuba.

French horn is orchestra/wind band only.

Most of the other brass band instruments - tenor horn, baritone, flugelhorn etc - are not orchestral instruments and don't transfer across easily.

Seven is really young to predict. I wouldn't compare her with violinists who have been playing since 2/3/4, they are probably going to be in a different league. My experience with three kids is that the most musical one never really practiced, he just played, which is fine, he enjoyed lessons until he left school. Playing was his relaxation. He could have been fantastic! The one who works the hardest, didn't start her main instrument until 9/10 ( can't actually remember!) and did grade 8 age 15 ( was able to play similar standard pieces long before that though!) She'd already done piano from 8 and recorder from 7/8 so had a good start. Things that helped - we've always taken her to lots of concerts as I play in an amateur one. Listen to a range of music on the radio. She had a teacher with high expectations, an eye for detail eg use of tuner and metronome pretty early on. Playing regularly at church, in orchestras and auditioning for further opportunities even when not guaranteed to get in for the experience. Youngest has kind of sneaked up as being pretty good too, I guess as she's seen her sister. Enjoy your DD making music, provide opportunities ( they don't all have to be expensive - NYO inspire for example is 'free' ( you still have to get there. ) for teens grade 6+ at state schools. You have to be much better at a popular instrument to get in to things. Eg middle DD is in the NYO and friends who are objectively better at flute/ clarinet didn't get in.
Rarer instruments here are tuba, trombone, french horn, viola, double bass, oboe, bassoon. Beware double reeds ( oboe/ bassoon) are insanely expensive though! Double bass and viola instruments come in good prices for even up to relatively higher grades. Piano is always useful but is less sociable.

Your DD sounds much like mine was. Began violin at 6, picked up trumpet at 8, and quickly progressed through grades. Has perfect pitch. Sings. Self taught pianist. Loves it!
Switched to cornet to join a brass band (excellent places to learn). At 16 seriously pondered music school, with the support and agreement of music teachers. But in the end plumped for maths. Is now in her mid twenties in an excellent job she enjoys. And crucially still has music in her life. It's a way of making friends and having a fulfilling hobby.
I'm glad she didn't professionalise her love of music.
What I'm saying is, just go with the flow. It's a joy to go along with the ride. Just keep encouraging (and paying!!), and see where it takes your child in a couple of years time.
Also if being a chorister is important make sure music theory is as well established as the practical side.
But mainly rejoice in the joy!

Her teachers have never asked her to do scales. They just give her a piece or two to learn, and she does that. Generally they're so short that there's not much point in dividing them up into harder bits and easier bits, but we do sometimes.

I do try to sit in where I can, but I have a rambunctious two year old, so it doesn't always work out.

You daughter sounds like she's doing really well.

Your dd sounds lovely and undoubtedly something “there” if she is that interested in music.

I echo “go with the flow” and “don’t compare”. My DN started descant recorder age 6 in a lunchtime group at school and that was an excellent way to learn to read music - which set her up to learn sopranino and treble and bass recorders the next year. She enjoyed it, so her parents started her on violin age 7, that was so-so and she battled through grade 3 in year 6.

Meanwhile her old recorder teacher suggested she could try a flute and as the fingering is basically identical to a recorder and she could already read music, she just ran with it. Quit the violin in Y7. She did her grade 4 flute in her first year (Y6) and distinction at grade 8 in year 10. Tacked on piccolo and joined some bands (she loved that!). Really her whole social life was music - orchestras, bands, solos.

She taught herself classical guitar and ukulele in her teens, joined a chamber choir - as her parents didn’t want to fork out for piano lessons.

She was undoubtedly musical and talented - but the world is absolutely chocful of talented musicians and she never considered trying to make her music more than a beautiful pastime. She still loves music and taught herself piano once she got a flat of her own in her 20’s.

So I guess what I’m saying is - encourage, support, facilitate. See what happens. Take her to local concerts, to watch brass bands, put all kinds of music on in the car and at home. Even going to listen to a local choir sing or going to a Christmas Carol service can feed a love of music. And if that spark of passion leads to a bigger motivation and talent then it will happen, and you can just enjoy being swept along in it all.

@HowDoYouSolveAProblemLikeMyRear She has one of these, that I got second hand: https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/JDP-1-Junior-Digital-Piano-by-Gear4music-White/12LR?origin=product-ads&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoeGuBhCBARIsAGfKY7xbZTm3gBUbAdeYtVXImH8DRUCmtlKnxI-g8BEnX_t7DHILOh_EulsaAkzHEALw_wcB

Before that, she had an absolutely ancient keyboard on loan from the music school. This was definitely an upgrade! It's touch sensitive but not weighted.

The only kids' choir locally is at the same time as her music lessons, and the school choir has disbanded, which she's really sad about. She does get to do end of term performances at music school, though.

@Michiamo I don't think there's a try out scheme here (we're in a small city in the North), but I've said she could ask her recorder teacher about other wind instruments. And I think the brass band will let her have a play around on a few before she decides.

@horseymum Do you mean the instrument itself, or the reeds? Because she's a FSM kid, the music service will lend her an instrument for free, but expensive accessorises would be a problem. I think there must be a big drive to get underprivileged kids in, there seem to be a lot of free/cheap opportunities, although concerts are a different matter.

@cinnamonbiscuit Getting someone to prep her for a voice trial is a good idea. I might tell her she'll never be a chorister if she doesn't read properly! She's fine with long words, then skips 'the' and 'to', it drives me up the wall.

@Octavia64 Funnily enough we had a disagreement last night about whether trumpets sound different than cornets - personally I couldn't tell you which is playing just from the sound, she says she can. I can see her with a trombone, but I suppose I'll have to leave it up to her. The brass band does an annual intake in the autumn, so we have some time.

@faffadoodledo Funnily enough, she's very good at maths, and is pretty strong on music theory. I work in a creative industry, so yes, I'm hoping she chooses a more stable career than musician.

I haven't managed to reply to all of you, but thank you all so much for your comments. I think I'm a bit clearer on some things now. I'm going to test her singing range tonight, to see whether she can sing as high as a chorister. From what I've learnt here, the chances aren't as astronomical as I thought. Although tbh, I'm still not convinced, every time she learns a song at school she comes home almost shouting it, and it couldn't be further from my image of an angelic chorister!

To address some of the other advice, we do go to concerts when we can, but I also have a two year old, so we can't go to anything formal. There's a strong brass band culture where I am, so that might be a good route for her, and I've said she can talk to her recorder teacher about moving on to another wind instrument if she likes. And it sounds like I need to start saving up for a new piano.

If you're Northern and within reasonable distance of Manchester look at the RNCM engage events (which are all about supporting the rarer instruments if that's what she chooses)and RNCM pathfinder (which is focussed on breaking down barriers including financial ones). I appreciate you might be the wrong side of the country for that though

Bassoon and oboe reeds are expensive, one of the reasons our council doesn't offer it. £12-18 each and you generally need at least two on the go as a beginner and they only last a few weeks. ( DD has many more than this at any one time, all for different things!) It's great if you get the instruments for free. Brass bands can be a great community I think and get to perform lots which is fun.

I didn't realise the viola situation was so bad, I encouraged Dd to try it as I knew it was in demand and she likes it but maybe u need to get her to focus a bit more on it. As she is a 10-a-penny flautist I'm conscious a more unusual second would be very advantageous fir any conservatoire application

Also, look out for summer schools. Pretty sure DD did a couple. Tho I'm sure funding is tighter these days.
But if it's brass she wants I'll repeat my initial advice - brass bands take teeny tiny children into their learner bands, and they quickly progress into senior positions if. There os some snobbery surround ding brass bands but they can be excellent. And the great Alison Balsom started off playing in one!

cinnamonbiscuit has given brilliant advice about chorister singing, and in particular that lots of choristers don't already have stellar voices when they join. My DS was a late developer and at your DD's age I would have said that he wasn't really much of a singer. His voice started to improve when he joined the school choir and after he became a chorister at age 9, the difference that proper training and regular singing made was amazing - by the time he left he was doing big solos for public concerts and radio broadcasts.

Reading fluency is particularly important for psalms, because choristers don't learn psalms as full songs, they learn a basic 4-section tune and then have to fit the words of the psalm to the tune as they go, guided by a sort of notation/punctuation called pointing. They don't do it completely on the fly (most of the time!), but usually with very little rehearsal.

If you don't have easy access to an in-person chorister experience, some cathedrals hold them online. St. Paul's Cathedral runs online chorister experiences which I can recommend. They involve some fun singing with some of the choristers and a tour of the relevant bits of the cathedral. They also have videos of some of the younger choristers singing songs that would be suitable for a voice trial.
https://www.stpauls.co.uk/join-cathedral-choir

I would also try to discourage your DD from shouting/belting when she sings - it is really, really bad for a developing voice! Some singing training would help her learn to support her voice properly so she can make a decent sound without shouting. You mentioned that the local children's choir timings clash with your DD's music lessons - maybe there a local church choir she could join as an alternative?

@NimbleFox I wish I still lived in Manchester! There are loads of good opportunities there. Unfortunately I moved too far east for it to be viable. I'll keep my eyes open for things in Leeds, which is easy to get to.

@horseymum Ooof. My feelings about the bassoon are completely changed. My first reaction to the idea of moving on from the recorder was that I rather liked it being a cheap, almost-indestructible instrument that you can put in the dishwasher, and I do feel that position has some merit.

She's enthusiastic about everything, is the problem, from brass to violas to electric guitars. But honestly the only reason I didn't let her join last October was logistics. I think evenings will be easier when her sister is a bit older, and perhaps DD will have a clearer idea what she wants by then.

@Vaduz Yes, the shouting drives me wild. I think it's the teachers trying to get the quiet kids to be audible. I sat in the back row to watch the nativity this year, and she was literally the only kid I could hear, mostly because she spoke up and everyone else mumbled at their feet. It's hard to explain to a child that their teacher means everyone should be louder except them, though.

Our Sunday mornings are actually busy going to a religious service, it's just not one with any music, and so I'm a bit reluctant to fill that with church. I realise there's an irony in saying that in a conversation about cathedral choirs, but I suppose the fact that the latter is at least 18 months away makes the sacrifice feel less immediate, as well as her actually getting it being unlikely.

The psalms sound hard! I'll check out the link, thank you. There is a 'chorister for a day' day in my city once a year, in autumn. We couldn't go last year, but it shouldn't be too hard to get to this time. Maybe she'll hate it and I can stop worrying about the whole thing!

The recorder is a perfect instrument in itself, I'm teaching a wee girl who loves it and probably won't move on for a while if at all for reasons of convenience/ cost etc. There are pockets of really good opportunities to play with others around the country but not everywhere, which is why people often suggest moving on. There's a national youth recorder orchestra as well.

@horseymum and @TreeAtMyWindow DDs bassoon reeds last months - but maybe she's doing something wrong! Former teacher is clearly selling them to us at below the normal price as well - she reluctantly put them up to £11 this year due to the 'rising cost of cane'.