runner united (we talk almost as fast as we run)

[drivingmisscrazy]

a thread for runners to chat, debate, share tips, triumphs (and the occasional disaster!) - new runners particularly welcome, the only thing that's required is enthusiasm (and a pair of running shoes)

29/05/11 - Stirling R4L: squix
29/05/11 - Plymouth Half Marathon: sungirltan
30/05/11 - BUPA 10K: MoshiMoshi
01/06/11 - BHF Canary Wharf 10K jog: june2009
05/06/11 - Tilty Hilly 5(mile): bonkers20
05/06/11 - RFL 10k: LaLa
08/06/11 - Claver Peak 5 miles: hatwoman
11/06/11 - Clumber Park R4L 10k Hamster
12/06/11 - Bath R4L 5k Dillinger
12/06/11 - Redcar half marathon - DrNortherner
12/06/11 - The Heroes half marathon - Futurity
19/06/11 - Dash for Dads - Pawsnclaws
19/06/11 - Half Ironman UK 70.3 - Twink, MoshiMoshi
25/06/11 - Lewa half marathon Kenya - Masterandmargaritas
26/06/11 - Stortford 10 miles - thecoo
26/06/11 - Colworth half marathon - cestlavie
06/07/11- Yately 10k (not actually booked yet): DebiTheScot
10/07/11 - RFL 5K, Kingston & Kempton Park: Wheelybug
10/07/11 - Felsted 10K: bonkers20
16/07/11 - Phoenix park 5 miler - drivingmisscrazy
17/07/11 - RFL St Albans - Pawsnclaws
17/07/11 - Dundee Half marathon - TheChewyToffeeMum
17/07/11- Chichester (Sprint) Triathlon: DebiTheScot
20/08/11 - Frank Duffy 10 mile, Dublin - drivingmisscrazy
03/09/11 - Dingle Half-Marathon - drivingmisscrazy
11/09/11 - Bristol Half- Marathon - thetasigmamum
18/09/11 - GNR: Hamster, Run for fun, popsycal, LaLa
23/09/11 - Notting Half Marathon: cestlavie
25/09/11 - Edinburgh Urbanathlon: backwardpossom
25/09/11 - Windsor Half Marathon: Doyouthinktheysaurus
02/10/11 - Standalone 10K: Futurity
02/10/11 - Bradford Half Marathon - MrsWednesday
02/10/11 - Baxter's River Ness 10k - backwardpossom
16/10/11 - Abingdon Marathon: MoshiMoshi
30/10/11 - Great South Run: Wheely, squix
19/02/12 - Brighton Half marathon - Wheely

Futurity, it looks like you had just one bad mile, which is bloody good going over a half marathon! Great race report.

DrNo, have you had jellybeans before when you were training?

Debi, speedy legs, well done! Are you tempted to do a full one now?

Daft question considering I've had my Garmin for several years, but what buttons do I have to press to get lap times? Is it something I have to set up before I leave the house?

Survived DS2's party yesterday with nerves, sanity and house intact - luckily the sun shone so all the boys could run around and burn off excess energy. It is DH's birthday today, so I am worn out with it all now. Nipped out for some peace and quiet 8.5 miles this morning (with mild hangover) which was great.

Interesting point from this article about marathon training here about doing your long runs a lot slower than your race pace (copied and pasted):

"Most marathon runners fail to fold goal-pace running into their long runs. As incredible as it seems, many marathoners perform their long runs at a specific, slower-than-goal pace and then expect to complete their marathons at a tempo which is about a minute per mile faster! This is a bit like preparing to build a 747 jetliner by fooling around with Lego blocks!

Endurance and running ability are always speed-specific; being able to run 26 miles in training at eight-minute pace doesn't increase the likelihood that you'll be able to run the marathon distance at seven-minute tempo--or at any speed faster than eight minutes per mile.

Such non-specific exertion is "magical" training; an athlete is working hard and then hoping that the gods of running will sprinkle magic dust on him/her at the starting line of the race, allowing new talents to blossom.

Far better than a 20-mile run at slower-than-marathon intensity would be a 20-mile effort, with about 10 of those miles at goal pace. Such a training session would permit a marathon runner to see if goal pace was actually feasible, would improve efficiency at goal tempo, and would optimize endurance at hoped-for speed. Believe it or not, these are all good things--and none of them are optimized by long runs at slower-than-goal tempo."

Well done to all the racers this weekend, it has been brilliant being part of the build up and hearing about it all at the end.

MrsWeds ooh, we are having a proper running argument discussion! I don't think that the same methods work for every runner, either. I do suspect that my running slowly routinely means, well, that I run slowly. But I am (a) older than all of you - I think - and therefore more prone to injury and (b) only running properly for 5 months or so (having not run regularly for almost 2 years) - so endurance and aerobic fitness have to come before speed/tempos etc. Also the slow running principle doesn't preclude any running at speed - just that only some of your training should be at speed. Surely no-one does all their running at target pace? I do some of my running at target pace (or faster, for intervals).

I do think you have to take into account other factors - if I do too much volume at too fast a pace, I just get hurt!

Herecomesthesciencebint I have been wondering if I set off too fast......never ran that far, that fast before so possibly. Though I also wonder if I hadn't banked those miles that I may not have got the time I did. Who knows? Maybe at my next one I will try to pace myself in the earlier miles to see if I can keep something back for the last few miles. Though I wonder if the last mles are always hell

MrsWeds I have only taken the jelly beans once, and it was on a long walk to see if I liked the taste, never used them on a run.

Meant to say, at the last water station they were giving out energy drinks and I took one. It tasted like bloomin fairy liquid and I nearly threw up! Plus I have a blue toenail, nearly black. What's that all about?

Well done DrNo and futurity. You both did amazingly well. And well done Debi and possom!

Race reports were great to read - very inspiring!

I did most of my marathon training at race pace - but my marathon race pace was half a minute slower than my usual training pace, so that's a bit misleading really

Agreed, am also old and prone to injury, and have had to stop going to running club because every time I pushed myself in their speed sessions I'd end up with something fairly major going wrong.

Blue toe nails never happen in training do they? Or rarely anyway! Same happened to me after my last race, have had to paint all my toenails black to hide it.

Right I really MUST go to bed. Hope the legs aren't too sore tomorrow DrNo and Futurity

Hooray! Well done DrNo, a fantastic achievement. So pleased that you got your much hoped for (though never mentioned!) time. Thanks to you and futurity for your race reports, I loved them! Just shows how much of this racing lark is a mental battle. Agree DrNo that maybe your first half was too fast but on the other hand this worked for you as you got the time you were after. Is something to play around with fog your next one!! Futurity I think your splits were actually really consistent, other than that one mile, so you paced yourself well and got your target time too! You are both complete superstars anyway and hope the legs are ok today!

Interesting article MrsWeds. instinctively that would be the way I would train, but have read do many articles about running slower like Driving was saying....so confusing!! I think Moshi did some of her long runs with a portion at marathon race pace, but then her LSR pace is quicker than my 5k race pace....

Deb, your race report was hilarious! Sounds like a fun race, well done!

Driving, have you thought of signing up for the IHMOID next year? ; ) Seriously though, might be nice to trounce everyone else and defeat your bete noire, although you would have to rename the race...

Wow Science that was a fast treadmill 5k you did!! Nice one.

Blimey ...I can actually walk downstairs! Believe me that is a novelty after all that running yesterday. Recovery drink must of helped. I do ache alot but it is manageable...expect though I will come down with a massive cold or something this week. Hope you are ok DrNo

hello all. Did 4 miles this morning in drizzle. Felt like really hard work - it was one of those runs where somehow I'm against the wind the whole time, no matter what direction I'm facing in, as if I've got my own personal wind machine.

I'm off to the States tomorrow for a week for a friend's wedding. Exciting, but nervous too because I'm going on my own as we couldn't afford for us all to go, and I'll miss my family a lot. Anyway, I have a question: should I take my running shoes? My half-marathon is on 4th September, I don't know whether I can afford to take a whole week off at this stage. And I might like to get out for a run at least once, especially as I'll be staying with my friend's family and don't want to get in the way. What to do?

Emma - that made me grin. I have also experienced wind against me like that and come back and moaned to DH who looks like [

emma definitely take your shoes :)
or you cuold buy some shows there if you're worried about luggage space, the states has got a good reputation for cheap clothes/shoes

hello everyone. well done futurity and drno and indeed all of you for getting out there. i have been injured, peroneal tendonitis. three weeks off, all my own fault for too little rest, not enough stretching and no cross training. have been swimming instead. I did wonder whether it was the minimalist shoe, but osteopath says might have contributed but not caused.

had to run for the train this morning and it seems ok so will try a little 5k later.

Wow, well done DrNo, futurity and Debi.

DrNo - that was a fantastic time. 2 minutes faster than your goal time is really rather amazing. I tend to run HM's the same way as you, i.e. far to fast at the start. I know it's against all the advice and I'm trying not to in the future, but there is something to be said for banking those early faster miles to give you a bit of a cushion later on. And how great to cross over the line with your DH! Would love to run something with DW but she hates running, even though she's actually intrinsically very fit (she "had a go" at 5K at the gym the other day and did it 30 mins...).

Sounds like a very balanced race futurity so well done and glad you can walk today! I think lots of people have bad miles in an HM so you're certainly not alone in that... Loved your race comments and report too Debi - very funny!

MrsWed, I've actually asked about that article on RW forums where they're VERY hot on doing long slow runs at a lot less than race speed cos frankly I just don't get it conceptually either. I think the main reason is that running long distances at race speed (a) increases your risk of injury and (b) means that the rest of your training isn't as effective as it could be because you're knackered from repeatedly racing... which I think I can sort of see. Where I've had a break from harder longer runs, I can do shorter runs some way faster.

Emma, you should so take your shoes! Time and new places to run... sounds perfect!

just entered the Bupa 10K next year as entries just opened and I know it fills up quick:
www.london10000.co.uk/

www.london10000.co.uk/

Cestlavie I know it will be hard to slow down in my next half at the begginning. I felt calm when my splits slowed as I knew I had time in the bank so to speak. At work today on a high and everyone is very impressed! I can walk, legs feel fine, hips a little sore.

Dh can run a half much quicher than me (in about 1.40) but he stayed with me to get me round, and he did help so much in those last few miles. He was reminding me about form as it slipped considerably towards the end. Not sure what the spectators thought as dh as bellowing at me 'Strong core', 'shoulders back' and 'remember knee lift'

futurity welld one on registering for the next race, I need to have a think about what I will do next.

Intersestingly, looking at my splits I would have done 10k in about 51 mins, my PB is 56 so chuffed with that too.

I've added myself to the race list hope that's okay and I've done it right

29/05/11 - Stirling R4L: squix
29/05/11 - Plymouth Half Marathon: sungirltan
30/05/11 - BUPA 10K: MoshiMoshi
01/06/11 - BHF Canary Wharf 10K jog: june2009
05/06/11 - Tilty Hilly 5(mile): bonkers20
05/06/11 - RFL 10k: LaLa
08/06/11 - Claver Peak 5 miles: hatwoman
11/06/11 - Clumber Park R4L 10k Hamster
12/06/11 - Bath R4L 5k Dillinger
12/06/11 - Redcar half marathon - DrNortherner
12/06/11 - The Heroes half marathon - Futurity
19/06/11 - Dash for Dads - Pawsnclaws
19/06/11 - Half Ironman UK 70.3 - Twink, MoshiMoshi
25/06/11 - Lewa half marathon Kenya - Masterandmargaritas
26/06/11 - Stortford 10 miles - thecoo
26/06/11 - Colworth half marathon - cestlavie
06/07/11- Yately 10k (not actually booked yet): DebiTheScot
10/07/11 - RFL 5K, Kingston & Kempton Park: Wheelybug
10/07/11 - Felsted 10K: bonkers20
16/07/11 - Phoenix park 5 miler - drivingmisscrazy
17/07/11 - RFL St Albans - Pawsnclaws
17/07/11 - Dundee Half marathon - TheChewyToffeeMum
17/07/11- Chichester (Sprint) Triathlon: DebiTheScot
20/08/11 - Frank Duffy 10 mile, Dublin - drivingmisscrazy
03/09/11 - Dingle Half-Marathon - drivingmisscrazy
11/09/11 - Bristol Half- Marathon - thetasigmamum
11/09/11- Bristol Half- Marathon- N4nny
18/09/11 - GNR: Hamster, Run for fun, popsycal, LaLa
23/09/11 - Notting Half Marathon: cestlavie
25/09/11 - Edinburgh Urbanathlon: backwardpossom
25/09/11 - Windsor Half Marathon: Doyouthinktheysaurus
25/09/11 - London Half Marathon Run to the beat: June2009
02/10/11 - Standalone 10K: Futurity
02/10/11 - Bradford Half Marathon - MrsWednesday
02/10/11 - Baxter's River Ness 10k - backwardpossom
16/10/11 - Abingdon Marathon: MoshiMoshi
30/10/11 - Great South Run: Wheely, squix
19/02/12 - Brighton Half marathon - Wheely

Emma agreed - take your shoes. Am sure that you will find some great places to run, if not then it could be a great opportunity to try those short sprint sessions someone was describing up thread. And it could well be an opportunity to run in the warmth as well - I went out for a run in a t shirt over the weekend too and regretted it. My arms were so cold. Admittedly I was running slowly but whilst the rest of me was warm, my arms were goose bumpy.

Am out at the moment but when I am back I'll post some of my long run paces and lengths compared to my hm race pace. From what I remember my long runs which ranged between 11 and 14 miles in the 6 weeks running up to the hm were averaging at about 10.30 - 10.45 min mile and i ran race at about 9.15. I think there are a number of factors - race was flat and my long runs have a few hills, I run on my own and found having lots of people around made a huge difference, the crowds during a busy race made a big difference in terms of motivation and encouragement too. For me, the size of the race makes a big difference - the fact that supporters and spectators have turned up to watch gave me a huge boost.

I agree we are all different and different things suit different folks and we will all have strategies that work for us. My best long training run was an 11 miler when I alternated race pace and very slow recovery for each mile. I proved to myself that I could sustain that pace during a long run. Agree injury avoidance plays a big factor too.

Oh and I still ache from Saturday - my legs hurt more than they did after the HM - my inner thighs - oh boy. Not sure I can fit in a regular military fitness class - I suspect that it needs to be a regular thing - but I will maybe look at the DVD someone mentioned.

Racers - hope your legs are feeling good and you have a post race glow about you today.

Thanks for all your lovely messages. NOTYUMMY

I am running for both fitness & weight loss (my PT said I needed to improve my cardio - & have worked up from stationary bike to x trainer to treadmill).

Did another 30 minutes at my sisters gym on Saturday - but couldn't manage it non-stop. Think it could be because the air con wasn't working & I felt I couldn't breathe properly (Gosh I sound pampered)!

Well done everyone who had races this weekend - am in awe.

My SIL has asked me to do a 10K in October...I've done a few 5K race for life..

have just added my new one to the end of the list...seems ages away but I had to book it now as places go quite quickly apparently. May also do Great Eastern Run in October but waiting for confirmation that my friend will do it!

19/06/11 - Dash for Dads - Pawsnclaws
19/06/11 - Half Ironman UK 70.3 - Twink, MoshiMoshi
25/06/11 - Lewa half marathon Kenya - Masterandmargaritas
26/06/11 - Stortford 10 miles - thecoo
26/06/11 - Colworth half marathon - cestlavie
06/07/11- Yately 10k (not actually booked yet): DebiTheScot
10/07/11 - RFL 5K, Kingston & Kempton Park: Wheelybug
10/07/11 - Felsted 10K: bonkers20
16/07/11 - Phoenix park 5 miler - drivingmisscrazy
17/07/11 - RFL St Albans - Pawsnclaws
17/07/11 - Dundee Half marathon - TheChewyToffeeMum
17/07/11- Chichester (Sprint) Triathlon: DebiTheScot
20/08/11 - Frank Duffy 10 mile, Dublin - drivingmisscrazy
03/09/11 - Dingle Half-Marathon - drivingmisscrazy
11/09/11 - Bristol Half- Marathon - thetasigmamum
11/09/11- Bristol Half- Marathon- N4nny
18/09/11 - GNR: Hamster, Run for fun, popsycal, LaLa
23/09/11 - Notting Half Marathon: cestlavie
25/09/11 - Edinburgh Urbanathlon: backwardpossom
25/09/11 - Windsor Half Marathon: Doyouthinktheysaurus
25/09/11 - London Half Marathon Run to the beat: June2009
02/10/11 - Standalone 10K: Futurity
02/10/11 - Bradford Half Marathon - MrsWednesday
02/10/11 - Baxter's River Ness 10k - backwardpossom
16/10/11 - Abingdon Marathon: MoshiMoshi
30/10/11 - Great South Run: Wheely, squix
19/02/12 - Brighton Half marathon - Wheely
27/5/12 - London Bupa 10K - Futurity

gosh, the List is going in to 2012 already! There will be 2 more thread babies by then...

I'd better actually sign up for my 5 miler - it's only 4 weeks away now. Was thinking about another half to complete my year. Might look up a couple of the ones on the list here.

Joby - good stuff - go for it. 10k in October is great timing - all summer to prepare (although summer? I am sitting here with 2 jumpers on!).

Still feeling proud of all our racers this weekend. You did so well.

Ok so here's my experiences of the long run @ less than race pace arguement discussion, for the 8 weeks running up to 1/2 marathon :

13.1 miles @ 9.13 (1/2 marathon) mins per mile
8 miles @ 09:45 mins / mile
10.6 miles @ 10.25 mins / mile
13.9 miles @ 10:48 mins / mils
12 miles @ 11:38 mins / mile
12 miles @ 11:14 mins / mile
13.3 miles @ 10.39 mins / mile
12 miles @10.27 mins / mile

I reckon my steady pace for a 10k run in training is about 9:30 / 09:45. I was using a fairly standard 1/2 marathon programme of 1 long run, 1 tempo run, 1 interval session and 1 easy run per week with a gradual 2 week taper - that last 8 miles was 1 week before race day.

I do remember thinking at the end that I would have liked to do some longer runs at closer to desired race pace. As I said - my experiences but we are all different. Up to 14 miles I find it much easier to add an extra mile than i do to get 15 seconds quicker per mile. Now I know I can sustain that pace over 13 miles - I will be looking to get my long runs a bit quicker as well.

Right - back to work squix - I could spend all day talking about this stuff.

wondering about the Run to the Beat London half (June2009 you're signed up already) - it's all around Greenwich, Charlton and Woolwich - my mum lives in Charlton, I grew up in Woolwich, so I could kill two birds with one stone and visit her as well. Only problem is that the day before is DP's birthday, and I'm not sure it's her idea of a good time

Interesting squix, that's a marked improvement from training to HM time. My times are always far less of an improvement... Looking back at my last HM vs. long run in training it was:

12.0 miles @ 8.05 mins per mile
12.0 miles @ 8.33 mins per mile
12.0 miles @ 8.24 mins per mile
7.8 miles @ 8.43 mins per mile
13.1 miles (HM) @ 8.13 mins per mile

It's worth mentioning that the HM was on a very hot (24 degrees) day and over a pretty hill course, whereas I train on much flatter terrain and that Runmeter probably isn't as reliable as a Garmin. That being said, there clearly isn't a lot of difference and I finished my HM absolutely shattered. Am aiming for under 8.00 mins per mile for my next HM but my last long runs have all been at 8.10 - 8.20 average so suspect it's going to be difficult to get there based on past form!

Know that DrNo and futurity both talked about how hard the last mile or two were and wished they'd gone up to the full distance in training. IME, to be honest, the last couple of miles are always brutal if you're looking for a good time as you're always pushing yourself as hard as possible for the best time...

FYI drivingmiss, heard that Run to the Beat is meant to be great if that helps with your decision!

Finally rid of the MIL so can get back on here !! I shouldn't moan really, she was here to help out and look after dd2 so I could go on dd1's school trip today. Plus, we got to go out for dinner just the two of us on Sautrday night and I got a couple of runs in.

I went with DH yesterday (yes I know I said I'd never run with him again) but I told him I wasn't running too fast which actually was fine because we went further than he usually does so it all balanced out. That said, we were half way into our out and back course and the heavens opened and the wind started howling towards us blowing v. cold rain at us so we stepped up the pace. Grim. But, for once I achieved a faster second half to first half. I am always going off fast, even on a training run and having to slow down - I think its very easy to do on a race because you get swept along with everyone else.

DrNo and futurity - hope you're not too weary today and basking in your success !! I am quite tempted by the 10K futurity.... Maybe I should secretly enter my mum into it... or would that be too mean.

Debi - well done on your 'marathon' - it sounds like a fun thing to do had it been a bit better organised.

june - if you look on the runners world website you can search by distance and areas for races.

Driving - I too have heard good things about run to the beat. Also, The Royal Parks although that would have to be a charity place now (although have seen some advertised where you don't have to race much).

If I may enter the long run debate, although admittedly have v. little experience, but presumably its good to do it slower whilst you're training up to a distance and ideally once you've got to that distance and are comfortable at it, to train some of it faster. Or maybe I am simplifying it too much.

I clocked up about 23 miles last week but ankle still a bit twingy - for one reason or another all my runs this week have been fast-ish so I think I'm going to ease off a bit this week in the hope of resting my ankle a little. So, probably only run 3x.