Page 16 | Can someone give me one benefit of Brexit.

Tulipsroses · 2023-12-05T18:54:16+00:00

It's going to be 4 years since we withdrew our membership in European Union. Apart from the passport colour (some people might prefer) can anyone name one positive change which happened since then.

Abhannmor · 12/12/2023 16:25

lljkk · 10/12/2023 09:21

June Mummery, the Lowestoft Brexit campaigner, still fervently believes in Brexit but also that her community (fisherpeople) has been utterly betrayed in Brexit, and her fishing community is certainly no better, probably much worse off. I don't understand all the issues, but I believe Mummery knows what she's talking about in this simple conclusion: Brexit has not delvered benefits for the Uk fishing community.

I'm curious about agricultural land changes after Brexit. We have livestock on many fields in East Anglia now (new). We have big field margins for wildflowers (new). We see different crops, never noticed before, trying to revitalise the soil. Have these changes delivered benefits to wildlife or the agricultural economy or carbon sequestration? James Rebanks is not hopeful about future of UK farming. I would like to hear from a Brexit-campaigner-farmer what they think of the changes.

Patrick Minford is the Brexiter's favourite economist. He thinks farming and manufacturing in Britain have to be wound up. I'm not sure what he thinks will replace them. I sort of tuned out if I'm honest !

The main benefit seems to be listening to people saying Brexit is very good but it hasn't been achieved yet. Stalinists used to go on like this about the USSR.

Flyhigher · 12/12/2023 16:37

@WorldGlobeTrotter we didn't have full Brexit in 2019! So we weren't voting on it. Now we have. Everything is affected. NHS especially.

jgw1 · 12/12/2023 16:46

Flyhigher · 12/12/2023 16:37

@WorldGlobeTrotter we didn't have full Brexit in 2019! So we weren't voting on it. Now we have. Everything is affected. NHS especially.

Given the agreement hadn't been reached with the EU to divide the UK at that point we didn't even know what Brexit meant in 2019.

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 17:10

To ensure equal balance between leave and remain on the ballot paper, it had to be binary choice. Listing different options was not possible as it would never be agreed what the options could be.

Well then, just maybe, one bright spark on the Leave side should have got everyone together to determine exactly what leaving would entail, and would cost. Then people could have voted on a real world question.

But, obviously, they didn't want that, because then they couldn't have sold is as all things to all men. Because then they wouldn't have stood a chance of winning.

TooBigForMyBoots · 12/12/2023 18:30

Flyhigher · 12/12/2023 15:24

I can't believe we even debate this. Brexit is a shitshow. It's totally humiliating. And anyone that voted for it is complicit!

TBF, a lot of Leave voters know what they did and regret it now they know they were manipulated.

Do you love animals? Vote Leave!
Are you unemployed? Vote Leave!
Can't get a GP appointment? Vote Leave!
Unable to afford a home? Vote Leave!
Pissed off at folks who are richer/more powerful than you? Vote Leave!
Hate David call me Dave Cameron? Vote Leave!

They voted Leave because Tory and other right wing politicians told them it would fix what ails them.

They lied.

MissBuffyAnneSummers · 12/12/2023 18:35

Duty free and Covid vaccinations.

Zonder · 12/12/2023 18:59

MissBuffyAnneSummers · 12/12/2023 18:35

Duty free and Covid vaccinations.

Care to explain what you mean by COVID vaccinations? Something different from what has already been debunked I guess?

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 19:01

As for "duty free" being a benefit...

Where do you begin with a statement that stupid?

jgw1 · 12/12/2023 19:21

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 19:01

As for "duty free" being a benefit...

Where do you begin with a statement that stupid?

It original, so credit goes for that.

HappiestSleeping · 12/12/2023 19:25

WorldGlobeTrotter · 12/12/2023 15:22

@HappiestSleeping We are in violent agreement here about Cameron. As I said earlier in the thread, he should have set a higher bar, say 60%

Was there a bar in the 1975 referendum? I can't find any details on the internet. If there was, then yes do the same again in 2016. If not, maybe Cameron thought he would be accused of unfairly moving the goalposts on the basis that he was a remain supporter?

After Cameron's win in 2015, he should have initiated a feasibility study into the pros and cons of leaving the EU and make a plan to leave the EU if the outcome was a vote to leave before a referendum date was set. On the specific subject of the GFA he could have directed the BIC (British Irish Council) to decide how to maintain the agrements made in the GFA if there was a vote to leave the EU.

Neither happened and the referendum was called without any plan if the vote was leave.

Article 50 was developed over the period 2002 to 2009 by a Scottish guy, John Kinlochard. He too thought that no member would ever leave the EU!

The phrase:

If you don't have a plan, any road will take you there.

Comes to mind

I don't know if there was a bar in the 1975 referendum. I see your point about introducing one, however I think it could be mitigated on the basis of the stakes being so much higher now. Also, being self serving, arrogant and without shame, I don't think any form of logic should be applied. Then again, no logic should be applied which is why he didn't.

It's all such a shambles. There is an argument to say that the state of politics generally is horrendous, and that the electorate deserve what they've got. Voting Boris in, a man with a history of questionable decisions and dishonesty going back decades is one example. I think there is a distinct possibility that the Conservatives will get in again.

Ironically, since Asia (specifically China) is the rising economic force, there is a good argument that the UK will be no worse off in the decades to come as the european market will be less important. It is the period in between now and then that is the issue. Which happens to be a very important few years for my remaining working life, and forthcoming pension. Both of which are screwed.

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 19:34

If there was a bar in the 1975 referendum, it would have favoured Remain anyway, as we have already joined the EEC. The government of the day thought they knew better than the "average person in the street", and so took us in because it was the best thing for us to do.

I.e., in a representative democracy, MPs are elected to do what they consider best for their constituents. They are not just pawns to vote however their constituents say.

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 19:37

Ironically, since Asia (specifically China) is the rising economic force, there is a good argument that the UK will be no worse off in the decades to come as the european market will be less important. It is the period in between now and then that is the issue. Which happens to be a very important few years for my remaining working life, and forthcoming pension. Both of which are screwed.

However, just a tiny bit of thought should allow you to see how ridiculous this argument is. If China is increasing in power, being outside a block with enough economic strength to stand up to it is hardly going to be better for us.

We've already shown our relative lack of strength when you compare our deal with Australia which throws our farmers under a bus, with the one signed by the EU which includes all the protections they wanted.

If we're too weak to stand up to the economic might of Australia, what hope have we against China?

HappiestSleeping · 12/12/2023 19:54

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 19:37

Ironically, since Asia (specifically China) is the rising economic force, there is a good argument that the UK will be no worse off in the decades to come as the european market will be less important. It is the period in between now and then that is the issue. Which happens to be a very important few years for my remaining working life, and forthcoming pension. Both of which are screwed.

However, just a tiny bit of thought should allow you to see how ridiculous this argument is. If China is increasing in power, being outside a block with enough economic strength to stand up to it is hardly going to be better for us.

We've already shown our relative lack of strength when you compare our deal with Australia which throws our farmers under a bus, with the one signed by the EU which includes all the protections they wanted.

If we're too weak to stand up to the economic might of Australia, what hope have we against China?

I don't disagree. What I mean is that, in the long term, the EU will become so insignificant, it won't matter whether we are a part of it or not. This will take a fair while (decades), as will the stabilisation of the UK economic position after Brexit. I don't think we have any chance of standing up against China. All the while we are infighting, they just carry on marching forward.

The fact that there are so many variables is what makes this such an interesting subject. Each decision brings about a set of consequences that in turn necessitate decisions which bring about a set of consequences ad infinitum.

That's why this discussion is largely futile other than for informative purposes, as is any discussion on cancelling / re-entering etc based on what should have happened before. Any such debate must be had based on today's situation, facts etc.

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 19:59

Why will the EU become insignificant? That's your basic Farageist bullshit.

The EU will still be the second largest Bloc in the world for the foreseeable future, hardly insignificant! And there's a pretty good chance that it could also grow over the next few decades, as other countries, including, hopefully, Ukraine, and so it will continue to be rather more significant than, say, a failing country fighting itself for any relevance languishing off the coast of Europe.

Zonder · 12/12/2023 20:05

Ah but surely now that we are not in it the EU is bound to become insignificant?

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 20:05

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

HappiestSleeping · 12/12/2023 20:19

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 19:59

Why will the EU become insignificant? That's your basic Farageist bullshit.

The EU will still be the second largest Bloc in the world for the foreseeable future, hardly insignificant! And there's a pretty good chance that it could also grow over the next few decades, as other countries, including, hopefully, Ukraine, and so it will continue to be rather more significant than, say, a failing country fighting itself for any relevance languishing off the coast of Europe.

I hope you're right, and yes the EU will be the second largest, but massively smaller by comparison.

The big influencer will be how much the population changes. The majority of the research I have studied was based on the increasing Asian population, however, this does not look to be as likely as it once did.

Also, climate change needs to be factored in. Large swathes of land masses near the equator will become uninhabitable, so those people will be displaced. That will change the immigration position and the population profile.

It really is a fascinating subject. Not sure I'm particularly keen on being compared to Farage, and I haven't heard him say much about this as I couldn't hear much more than "Europe is shit" coming out of his mouth.

Flyhigher · 12/12/2023 22:00

@HannibalHeyes I'm incredibly impressed with your patience on this. You are so articulate, I just get so cross at the fuckwittery x

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 22:07

I've bitten my tongue on a few occasions, I admit...

EasternStandard · 12/12/2023 22:16

I don’t think the posters with other views have been bad, just answering with info

Maybe these threads are more one sided usually idk

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 22:53

It's easy to give up on these threads when they're overrun with Tory/Brexit/Russian bots posting endless streams of lies and whataboutery.

That leaves the gullible to think they actually have honest points.

This thread hasn't actually been nearly as bad as some of them.

EasternStandard · 12/12/2023 23:06

I haven’t been on the Brexit board for ages. Most Brexit threads are just loads of insults

Flyhigher · 13/12/2023 05:01

@HappiestSleeping so if the uk is now a little corner shop. And the EU is Tesco. How do we compete now? Can't think of the full analogies. Ie is China Amazon and the US Apple.

HappiestSleeping · 13/12/2023 05:14

Flyhigher · 13/12/2023 05:01

@HappiestSleeping so if the uk is now a little corner shop. And the EU is Tesco. How do we compete now? Can't think of the full analogies. Ie is China Amazon and the US Apple.

I didn't say it was the corner shop now. What it has done is given up it's Tesco franchise (using your analogy).

The view of a great many of the economic studies I've read is that China is on its way to becoming Amazon, and that the UK has massively reduced its ability to compete by leaving the EU. It certainly hasn't strengthened it.

GlobeTrotter2000 · 13/12/2023 09:08

we didn't have full Brexit in 2019! So we weren't voting on it. Now we have. Everything is affected. NHS especially.

The 2019 GE was all about Brexit as demonstrated by the results.