Brexit mega thread part 11: is fucktastrophy a word?

[mirages08]

Part 11 of this mega thread

Couldn't see a new one?

Hope you don't mind a newbie starting it!

So you're fine with he House of Lords.

It's only forrin unelected politicians you have a problem with.

Even though you can actually vote for them,

Yeah, OK...

I actually agree with all of this. All our international relationship should be based on an understanding of the world as it is now, not as it was 70 years ago. Nonetheless, it is very much easier to build relationships with entities one has good reason to trust, in extremis, than those that have often shown themselves unworthy of such trust, then, and now.

Now, you might say well, Europeans will think that about Britain now, won't they?.... Yes, they might well think so. Given how they treat nations inside the club, forthcoming changes, and reflecting on they treated us when we tried to leave I'm very clear that we are better off out than in. If that means we are distrusted by them, so be it.

Hanibal, for the avoidance of doubt. the House of Lords needs to be gone. What (if anything) it is replaced with is another point, but I'm not defending it.

Given how they treat nations inside the club, forthcoming changes, and reflecting on they treated us when we tried to leave I'm very clear that we are better off out than in.

What? You mean they treated us like a country who wanted to leave, after having all kinds of special exemptions given to us?

JINGOISM

Nonetheless, it is very much easier to build relationships with entities one has good reason to trust, in extremis, than those that have often shown themselves unworthy of such trust, then, and now.

So USA - good.
Anything in the EU = bad by definition.
As for memorials - how about Northolt? (No, a memorial to brave Polish airmen, Poland is in the EU now, so let's forget that shall we?)

and reflecting on they treated us when we tried to leave

We didn't try to leave and were stopped. We left a couple of years ago.

Personally I do not enjoy the freedoms of having water companies polluting our seas and rivers - 1950s standards which I am old enough to remember and had no desire to see come back again.

I do not appreciate an NHS short of staff, which is now increasingly plugging the gaps with citizens from much poorer countries than ours.

Brexiters, I assume are happy with this.

they treated us when we tried to leave

This is one of those "tell me you don't understand Brexit without telling me you don't understand Brexit" things isn't it?

From memory, Louise has already stated that there are no circumstances - foreseen or unforeseen - in which they would change their mind. For them Brexit is an article of faith, as much as papal infallibility for Catholics, and the belief in the healing power of cake for Anglicans. Much as they slide the word "democrat" into discourse, it's more an aspiration than a definition.

I guess the thinking now is to crowd out any talk of Brexit with talk of Climate. Not so sure that's a good idea. Especially reading...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rishi-sunak-blue-wall-net-zero-election-b2416743.html

Again with the insults. I'm a democrat. What people vote for they should have, irrespective of whether I agree with it or not. Some examples:

If the UK holds a referendum on Rejoining the EU (Lot of road to go to get there but hear me out) exactly that should happen. Said referendum, IMO, would need to be held following a long period where we have been fully outside the EU, but whatever the result is, I'd respect in and expect to see it enacted.

If Scotland votes to become independent, they should become independent.

If Wales voted to become independent, they should become independent.

I don't think there are circumstances where it's likely I'd vote for Rejoin because I'm fundamentally opposed to the project/organsation but I'd respect a result where my fellow citizens did do this in the circs above.

I think this is probably the truth of it

One of the six "major Brexit wins" identified by the Express is... the fact that it annoys the right people

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1815630/brexit-eu-national-rejoin-march-London-protest

Again with the insults. I'm a democrat. What people vote for they should have, irrespective of whether I agree with it or not. Some examples:

We've had plenty of examples from you. Almost as if you feel you have something to prove.

And your continuing refusal to get the point pretty much underscores any attempt to engage with your intelligence.

Vote for whatever you like. As is your right. Knock yourself out. It really is your unalienable right (within certainly limited and specific ways that is).

However don't then try to sanitise your choice with flim flam and pretend your vote was a considered choice when - by your own admission - your would never have voted any other way. Especially when all the "EU bad" soundbites you trot out are actually embedded in the UKs constitution. Unless I missed the post where your explained in words of one syllable how we can rid ourselves of unelected bureaucrats like Lord Frost.

You are a zealot and if that is an insult, bite me.

My God, what point am I refusing to get? You've contradicted yourself BTW. How I'd vote Now and how I Did vote in 2016 are not the same scenario are they. Why accuse me of pretence when "never have voted any other way" is not something I've ever said on here, as I recall, and isn't true.

Sounds to me like you'd never have voted other than the way you did, what does that make you?

A one syllable plan to get rid of Lord Frost = End the House of Lords Now.

It's - almost - amusing to see Sunak flailing around for something...anything...that tories will vote for

Sadly, Starmer seems to be doing similar with labour voters

The result will be that the country goes further down the shitter

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66902610

I went to the march today!

There was actually a bit of a counter demonstration. It was mainly anti ULEZ but with a mix of other things. Anti green policies, climate change is a lie, anti vaxxes, Stop the Boats etc. I even saw somebody with a UN flag calling them the Third Reich.

Another separate demo outside Downing Street was Don't Ban ExL Bullies, they even went blocked Westminster Bridge for a while.

It was bizarre all the other protests going on! Some serious muppets amongst them...

Its self-evident from your responses on here that you are not well educated.

And that was always the dividing line in the referendum.

Nobody can help you become better educated.

That is something you have to do yourself.

I would suggest you start.

Please, please do have a stab at evaluating my education level from reading my posts on MN!!

I'll be very amused by what you conclude. See, I know what my level of education is and what my specialisms are. Presumably, you believe that a "well educated" could ONLY make the same analyses you do? and ONLY reach the conclusions you reach?

I think @LouiseCollins28 is very well educated. Unfortunately education doesn't stop you from putting on blinkers when you want to. I mean, look at the people ruling us: Eton, Oxford - and they're the biggest bunch of incompetent corrupt numpties UK politics has ever seen.

And of course Brexit isn't about rationality, it never was. It's a religion. And you can't argue with believers.

It's very much like a cult, just as with the Trumpists in the States (although there you can see a patent lack of education as well!). They've hitched their identity to the cult, and will defend it even as it becomes more and more ridiculous.

Lack of critical thinking skills and blind ideology is always correlated to a poor education.

When someone cannot process evidence in an objective way due to innate biases, thats when you know the education is lacking.

The thing about most remainers that I know is that they would have no issue looking at Brexit evidence and thinking "Brexit is working" if the evidence supported it. Evidence-based logical thinking essentially.

That is a skill you clearly have not demonstrated.

Its also something that is present in pretty much all Brexit-voting folks. They rely on emotional arguments rather than logical ones.

Thats also precisely why the UK is getting poorer.

Reality has the bad habit of punching you in the face if you keep deluding yourself (like many in the UK have).

Here is the thing:

The people in power are acting perfectly rarionally because they are driven by one thing only: staying in power.

Am sure that the vast majority of them don't believe a word of what they spout to the masses.

They say these things because its what many wanted (want) to hear.

So, what does that say about the UK electorate?

That you effectively get the politicians you deserve.

Thats why I don't try to pass the buck so to speak. They were voted in by people, and its the people that voted them in that should also share in the responsibility of admitting they got it wrong on an epic scale.

Until that happens, I do not expect much to change in the UK. It will just keep sliding and getting poorer due to sheer economic and demographic inertia.

I agree with you up to a point, @TheThinkingGoblin , but you can't just put the likes of @LouiseCollins28 into the box marked 'stupid'. There are better boxes available: 'Nationalist', 'Blinkered', 'Jingoist' just for starters. You can be all of those and still be educated and intelligent. It takes wilful choice to be like that, which actually makes it worse.

There is also a link here to the financial background of the person who voted for Brexit.

I see this a lot in older folks who are basically economically insulated from the effects of Brexit.

Even the educated ones. They don't change their views based on the evidence due to the fact they were not economically affected.

There was a survey done about this. A majority of these folks said that they would gladly see the country become poorer for Brexit.

Thats the kind of mentality you are up against.

I don't see these folks changing much. They are dying off and being replaced by younger people (who are pro-EU), but we are still 5-10 years out from this process entrenching a pro-EU majority.

That all sums up to the UK being an economic basket case for at least 5 years.