Brexit mega thread part 11: is fucktastrophy a word?

[mirages08]

Part 11 of this mega thread

Couldn't see a new one?

Hope you don't mind a newbie starting it!

There was a survey done about this. A majority of these folks said that they would gladly see the country become poorer for Brexit.

I find this attitude of wishing the country to be poorer very hard to understand. I am older, but I have children and grandchildren and I want a decent life for them.

But then I voted Remain.

Please, please do have a stab at evaluating my education level from reading my posts on MN!!

Just to note that "education level" has nothing whatsover to do with intelligence.

You could have more degrees than a compass and still be thick as mince.

Alternatively, you could have zero qualifications and easily bury me and all other posters in an avalanche of analysis.

Intelligence is a good axis for a four square, with empathy or kindness on the other. And I'd rather deal with stupid kind people than clever cruel people anyday,

I remember the survey among leave voting Tories back in about 2018, there was a big list of things they said would be worth it for Brexit. List included -

A return of violence to NI
Britain becoming poorer
Their own adult children losing their jobs and livelihoods
The break up of the UK

Shocking!
I have no doubt these people are very happy with Brexit and would 100% vote the same again. I really don't understand it or how they actually benefit. A real life example I know. I knew somebody, young woman in her 20s, ran a business entirely dependent on EU SM/CU membership. Business was just her and her sister (who'd just bought a house) and employed one other person part time. She said she begged her grandparents to vote remain because of her business. All four voted Leave. Ultimately her business didn't got bust because she moved it to the Netherlands. The part timer they employed lost her job. I have no doubt at all that the grandparents would still all vote Leave, even if the business had gone bankrupt and the sister had lost her new house.

Purely on logic then

Wanting more control, not less, over our political class is, IMO, a logical position to adopt. Leaving the EU is delivering that. UK parliamentarians are making our laws, not politicians based elsewhere. People get hamstrung by the quality of the laws or the quality of the people. Neither matters to me very much, what matters for me is that British voters can vote to remove those elected to govern them.

Wanting to pay less money, not more for something is, IMO, a logical position to adopt. Leaving the EU is delivering that. What one gets for the money in this scenario I'm barely interested in, what I'm measuring against is Are we paying more, or less? and Less = better.

Zero emotional arguments there:
People in charge who are at some level accountable to us = better.
Less money spent = better.

Again, I just think people on the other side of these arguements simply can't fathom how anyone can conclude differently than they do. I can easily see why people conclude differently to the way I do, they weigh the value of things differently to the way I weigh them.

Oh and, as well as my educational level, you're now making assumptions about my financial circumstances too, well that's lovely😁

Is that seriously your "evidence-based logical explanation"?

You have basically written a word salad that has no basis in reality.

Being more accountable to voters?

1.HoL is unelected (look at how Boris appointed the last crop of Lords. Its become a joke).
2.Tories pushed through voter IDs to purposely disenfranchise voters.
3.We have had world-beating levels of corruption in the UK these past 7 years to the tune of hundreds of billions of ££ (PPE, BBB loans, furlough etc). Massive amount of public money lost.

Who has gone to jail for this?

Nobody.

Less money spent?

I had to do a double-take with this one. Just amazing.

1.The UK is spending £100 BILLION a year on debt service costs right now. Thats 10% of all Govt revenues (of £1T)

Do you know why that is?

2.Because of our index-linked public debt (25% of all public debt issued by the Tories)

3.The UK is going to be paying for Brexit for the next 10+ years just via higher levels of structural inflation (which then makes our index-linked debt more expensive).

Notice how so many councils are broke?

Notice how our infrastructure is run down and even falling down now? (Hospitals and schools)?

4.All related to Brexit making the UK so fragile that the twin shocks of the Pandemic and Ukraine have sent the entire UK economy into a stagflationary tailspin.

These are only a few basic facts on Brexit mind you.

The evidence is so against Brexit at this point that there is no excuse left anymore. Its either you are correct or not. Black or white.

And thats why I was very specific about my view of your comments on here.

Loiuse - which member of the House of Lords did you vote for?

Don't bother to answer because we all know that the answer is none.

As for making our own laws - let's just start with the UKCA mark - now pretty much dead in the water because the Government has had to accept the EC marking. We used to have an input into this; we have now chosen via Brexit not to have an input.

I dare say that you have forgotten that it was an active choice of Cameron's Government not to take a full part in the EU. It wasn't some stitch up by the rest of the EU countries. I am pretty sure that it was the UK's turn to become the next rotating President, which would have given Britain a higher profile in the EU. Brexit killed that off.

The Tories pushed through voter ID to disenfranchise certain groups. As it happened Rees-Mogg had to admit that it was something of an own goal, because they disenfranchised many of their own voters.

Sorry but no, I haven't. I've not sought to give an explanation, you wanted emotion free, logic only arguments and I gave you 2.

Your response is all anti-Conservative points on side issues, none of which have anything whatever to do with the decision to leave the EU which is what this discussion is about.... and you accuse have the affrontery to accuse eme of being blinkered?!

@LouiseCollins28 if you don't see that the Brexit we have ended up with is a Tory Brexit, you aren't worth talking to.

But then your faith in Brexit is just that - faith. Of the religious kind. You and Leavers like you are happy to burn your own house down for your Brexit god. I accept that - but it isn't rational or sane.

For Heavens Sake can people trying to argue with me please, please bother to read what I post!!!!

When I write "what matters for me is that British voters can vote to remove those elected to govern them"....I am very obviously talking about Commons not the HoL, so stop bringing HoL up as if it's some magical winning argument. I'm not defending the HoL/

I don't want the HoL, you don't want the HoL. What I'm evaluating is not HoL, it is elected people I can vote to remove (MPs) , vs elected people in the EU I've never been able to vote to remove (MEPs). This is really not a tricky concept.

When I write "what matters for me is that British voters can vote to remove those elected to govern them"....I am very obviously talking about Commons not the HoL, so stop bringing HoL up as if it's some magical winning argument. I'm not defending the HoL/

You can't duck the issue like though, because the HoL is integral to how we are governed. As it happens, despite the fact that Johnson has stuffed it full of cronies, there are still decent members there, who have provided robust arguments against some of the current Government's more stupid proposals and managed to mitigate some of the worst effects.

'Nationalist', 'Blinkered', 'Jingoist', 'stupid'; 'cannot process evidence in an objective way due to innate biases', 'education is lacking'; 'a zealot', 'not well educated'....

All that, just in the last few pages 😔

Did you not vote in EU elections then?
If not, why not?

I'd love to be able to vote out Sunak, I can't. Well, actually, I take that back, I suppose I could pay to become a member of the Tory party although even they didn't vote to put Sunak in number 10, they voted for Liz Truss.

Also, you say you can vote to remove MPs (plural). You can't. You can only vote in your own constituency, and if that's a super safe seat, your vote makes no difference anyway. Personally, I much preferred the EU voting system were at least I had a chance of getting the MEP I wanted. But then I live in a super safe Tory seat.

As I've stated on this very thread. I've voted in every election I've been able to since becoming an adult, yes including all the EU ones.

MEPs are grouped into blocks that are voted in by voters from across the EU. I can't vote to remove an MEP elected in France, a French voter couldn't vote out one elected in the UK. For me, that was always an unacceptable position. I was being governed by people elected on a supra-national basis, whom I couldn't vote to remove, now after Brexit, I'm not. The Westminster system is very bad in lots of ways, but it's not as bad as what I've just detailed.

In terms of saying it's only the House of Commons that need concern us because we can elect them:

I first voted in 1970. It took until 2017 i.e. a full 47 years, to get a candidate I voted for elected. Other voters will go their whole lives and never get their chosen candidate elected.

Contrast that with the last EU elections, where we had a form of PR - at least two candidates I voted for got elected, as well as a few UKIPers that I would never have voted for in a million years.

Now it's true that when a person is elected as an MP they are supposed to represent all their constituents. MPs like Therersa May did take this commitment seriously, I can't speak for others. Others of course, like Nadine Dorries go completely AWOL on the job and don't bother with their constituents at all.

The Westminster system is very bad in lots of ways, but it's not as bad as what I've just detailed.

I beg to differ, but see my post immediately above as to why.

I could add that Theresa May stitched up a deal with the DUP and no-one in Great Britain could voted for them, because they only stand in NI. That's not a lot of difference to not being able to vote for French candidates in EU elections.

But you can't vote for MPs outside of your own constituency. And unless you live in his constituency or pay to become a member of the Tory party, you've had no say in who our PM is. As I said, at least with EU elections, I had a chance of getting an MEP I wanted unlike local elections because of our 'winner takes all' system.

I remember taking to somebody a while ago (Leave voter) who said they don't vote in EU elections because it's undemocratic 😁I think the irony was completely lost on them.

@LouiseCollins28

So if we were still in the EU, do you think you should have been able to have a say in which MEPs represent say... south west France?

I don't think I've ever had my chosen candidate elected as my MP at a GE. Possibly once in a by election but that was about 20 years back and while I know who won but I can't remember exactly who I voted for (probably the winner)

At the European Elections we voted for multi member constiutencies with candidates off a closed list.

The best you could possibly say (unless you were a party member who somehow had a direct role in determining who was on the lists) is that a candidate listed by the party you voted for, won. If you're happy with that, fair enough, I wasn't.

I've never voted for the winner in a Westminster election either, I always vote (even in my super safe seat were my vote counts for nothing anyway) I'm in my 50s.

@LouiseCollins28
Did you have better luck getting the candidate you wanted in EU elections?

@Kendodd No I don't think that.

Personally, I think that the French people, IMO, should be governed by politicians in France, voted for by people duly enfranchised to vote in France.

If they want something different to that, such as being part of the EU and electing MEPs to supra-national groups, it's their right as people to choose that. Since they remain happily in the EU, clearly they have chosen that, and that's good.

No @Kendodd I didn't. As I explained in previous post, at the EU elections it was a closed list so we all voted for a party, not a candidate.

That's a shame, I had much more success in EU elections. I remember my Green Party MEP was very good. Always replied really promptly to emails (al be it always with a green party recruiting message as well).

Anyway, let me get this straight.

You're unhappy because you don't get to vote out French MEPs.
And, you don't think you should be able to vote out French MEPs.

Have I got that right?

When I write "what matters for me is that British voters can vote to remove those elected to govern them"...

I don't think I've ever had my chosen candidate elected as my MP at a GE.

So despite setting a great store by this, you haven't been able to do that.

As for MEPs being chosen by a party list (which was not the system in all EU countries BTW and I am not sure even if was in NI), a majority of voters vote for a party. Hence the old Whig jibe that if the Tories put up a pig the electorate would vote for it.