Brexit Megathread Part 3: COP26 and beyond. The Empire is no more.

[prettybird]

The old thread is nearly full so as COP26 is in my home town, I thought I'd start the next one.

I'm not expecting anything wonderful from COP26. The selfishness that is Brexit will extend to the rich nations - or rather corporations, countries and cronies - not wanting to do anything that might actually cost them money or hurt their profits and having made their money on the back of the resources of the poorer nations (in some cases quite literally ), they'll expect them to pay the price for the riches of the West.

The deliberate mistranslation of France's letter to the EU will distract from real issues - but that's ok for BJ as he can then blame the perfidious French.

Nothing changes.

another senior Tory turns out to be part of the sleaze trend

Honestly, I'm old enough to remember the mid 90s and the Conservatives' slide into sleaze. This is so much worse. I hope it does for them.

Is that the wrong link?

If you click on " latest news", there's an article about Rees Smugg and £6m loan

Well hopefully it's world beating sleaze.

...to go with the "happy British fish"

@pointythings

another senior Tory turns out to be part of the sleaze trend

Honestly, I'm old enough to remember the mid 90s and the Conservatives' slide into sleaze. This is so much worse. I hope it does for them.

I think in hindsight what really did for the Tories was their 18 years in power. How many voters in 1997 were weeks old in 1979 ?

Person who works for me is 18 - born after 9/11, which is a head wobble. Politically they've only known the Tories.

Jacob Sleaze-Mogg...

.

and ...

I think in hindsight what really did for the Tories was their 18 years in power. How many voters in 1997 were weeks old in 1979 ?

My DD voted for the first time. But until then, we began to think that they would be in power for ever. But when they lost, boy, didn't they lose big time!

It's my guess that a lot of the big names will not stand at the next election.

And these aren't leftie papers - it looks as though the Tories have angered Murdoch.

@Peregrina

And these aren't leftie papers - it looks as though the Tories have angered Murdoch.

When they came for the ...

I think the papers have twigged where this is all going. I wonder if it's too late.

Lord Debben = the Conservative John Selwyn Gummer

I wonder what effect so demonstrably losing the "broad church" that has enabled conservatism to survive so long might have for the future ?

If we are condemned to a two-party state, then the actual names of the parties are probably irrelevant. My DM often puzzled as to why it was the Liberals (Whigs) that were eclipsed by the Labour movement.

Gummer who famously was agriculture secretary during the BSE episode, shouldnt be lecturing anyone about anythng IMO.

Has the Conservate party lost the broad church? On the issue of being pro or anti the EU I think you could well argue it has...on other things I'm not so sure at all. For my money...

Johnson is notably liberal on a whole host of things and very much committed to the green agenda in a way none of his predecessors as leader were. He's an opportunist, not really a conservative.

Sunak has overseen public spending growth as chancellor that any left wing Labour chancellor would have been delighted by,

Priti Patel is perhaps not from a traditonal conservative background but def takes a conservative approach to her brief.

Liz Truss I don't really know enough about to have an opinion on her credentials atm.

Dominic Raab actually is a conservative, has generally shown a conservative outlook to his brief but, for example allowed mass involvement of UK forces in the pullout from Kabul. When they could have just been removed overnight leaving (more) Afghans and Pen Farthing and co high and dry.

Still seems a fairly broad church to me if you set EU relations aside.

Yes, a broad church of sociopathic corrupt incompetents.

I don't think that a man who takes a private jet to get back to an unnecessary dinner engagement can be said to be green.

Liz Truss I suspect has few principles, but is just trying to climb the greasy pole. You have to be a big careful with this approach - you can tie yourself too closely to someone who suddenly falls from grace and takes you down at the same time.

Of course the Nazis had some pretty advanced environmental policies too. And famously detested production line manufacturing ("too Jewish"). They were big fans of artisan production. Hand crafted Junkers etc.

It still wasn't really a good reason to vote for the fuckers. (See also: Brexit).

My DM often puzzled as to why it was the Liberals (Whigs) that were eclipsed by the Labour movement.

I think myself because this was the time of the major extensions in the franchise came about, and working people then who the ones who gained, weren't likely to vote for landowning toffs. This doesn't explain working class Tories though.

This doesn't explain working class Tories though.

Mrs Thatcher did.

"If you treat people as middle class. They will vote as middle class".

See also Ken Livingstone's admiration at how she made society - previously pyramid shaped - egg shaped. Where the working classes had nothing to combine with to overpower the apex.

@Peregrina

I don't think that a man who takes a private jet to get back to an unnecessary dinner engagement can be said to be green.

Liz Truss I suspect has few principles, but is just trying to climb the greasy pole. You have to be a big careful with this approach - you can tie yourself too closely to someone who suddenly falls from grace and takes you down at the same time.

Fair points I'd say. I think this is an important element of Boris's image. Your comment clearly gets to how well he lives this in reality. Almost uniquely for a UK politician (certainly first time since Blair IMO) the image is as important, if not more than the reality.

Agree on Liz Truss, dangerous game she's playing. I'm a bit reluctant to critize because like I said I don't really know, but it seems like a good point to me.

@DGRossetti

and ...

Well his role as an MP only pays for the pocket money of a few of his children, its hardly fair to criticise a man for doing what is best for his family.

"broad church" conservatism allowed Thatcher (eurosceptic to the core) to be in the same party as Heseltine (who it wouldn't surprise me to learn sports EU boxers).

But then you can say many things about Mrs Thatcher. And over the years I have. But dim is not one of them. No way. I seriously want someone on this thread to tell us in all honesty they can see Mrs Thatcher not knowing where Dover is. Or that most of our trade with Europe goes through there.

She was smart enough (and patriotic enough and altruistic enough) to realise that the UK was better off in the EEC/EC/EU. She was also humble enough to appreciate that it wasn't all about her.

A good example of how pigshit thick brexiteers are (because they haven't changed) is their total - and collective - failure to look at the strategy of Brexit and develop a safety net (even if never needed) to demonstrate their competence.

Such a safety net would have been some sort of option to rejoin in a fast-track without too much pain.

No doubt at the time they thought they were being clever (bit of a pattern emerging here). However burning a bridge you may need to retreat over is not smart. Especially if you allow your enemy to trick you into doing it because you haven't twigged they are on your side of the river ... Yet this is exactly what Brexiteers have done.

Not that anyone has tried in a while, but that's one reason why I won't listen to their crap. Because that's all it is. Much like lorry drivers, there's not a reasoned argument in sight.

Johnson is notably liberal on a whole host of things and very much committed to the green agenda in a way none of his predecessors as leader were. He's an opportunist, not really a conservative.

Johnson is not notably liberal. He has been notably described as someone who tries to see which way the crowd is going before running to the front and saying "follow me".

Sunak has overseen public spending growth as chancellor that any left wing Labour chancellor would have been delighted by.

Sunak has found the "Magic Money Tree" his government so roundly denounced previously, and spaffed it all on his mates, and, indeed, his wife.

Priti Patel is perhaps not from a traditonal conservative background but def takes a conservative approach to her brief.

Probably the most traditional "hang 'em, flog 'em" conservative of the lot.

Liz Truss I don't really know enough about to have an opinion on her credentials atm.

Rather dim opportunist.

Dominic Raab actually is a conservative, has generally shown a conservative outlook to his brief but, for example allowed mass involvement of UK forces in the pullout from Kabul. When they could have just been removed overnight leaving (more) Afghans and Pen Farthing and co high and dry.

Another of the "hang 'em, flog 'em" crowd. Probably lucky for the Afgans we actually managed to evacuate that he was on holiday at the time, otherwise the forces on the ground would have had to deal with him fucking everything up.

Still seems a fairly broad church to me if you set EU relations aside.

Yeah, I think this comment shows the breadth of your vision...

Johnson was relected as mayor of London, you think that happens if you're a dyed in the wool conservative tradionalist? I don't. Just watched his COP-26 pressa which I thought at least at the start was better than any of his COVID ones. Why he still has this pathological aversion to apoology I can't fathom but there we are.

Conservatives run (for me) from the likes of Rory Stewart, Michael Hestetine and Ken Clarke on one side, who while socially pretty liberal and "cuddly" was still taking money by the shedload from BAT...to the more obviously conservatives like Peter Bone, John Redwood...

In the modern conservative party I suggest you have Suella Bravermann and Priti Patel at one extereme and the like of Andrew Mitchell and Damien Green on the other. Less broad than before, sure, but still broad IMO. Labour is similarly broad IMO still.