Is it time to move on positively after Brexit?

[TheReluctantPhoenix]

The following article appeared in the Times today (hopefully the share token has worked properly)::

The pain of Brexit isn’t as bad as I’d feared

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-pain-of-brexit-isnt-as-bad-as-id-feared-9n58bgcs5

This is written by the Britain editor of the Economist, one of the most ardent pro EU journals.

In it, inter alia, Emma Duncan admits that a mere 7,600 financial service jobs have moved from London to another European capital because of Brexit and that the BOE is now forecasting a post COVID bounce back of 7.25% to our GDP.

Of course, the article has many caveats about what might yet happen, but also some explanation as to why the U.K. might be far more resilient than she (and most ardent remainers) feared.

Exactly, that's why I left. It's not my culture and I want no part of it. The Little Englanders can have their miserable land all to themselves. Now that I live in the EU, I am very glad the UK is no longer part of it - they were a thorn in the side of the European project.

Oh and loads of polling has shown that voters in England are indifferent to the break up of the UK or peace in Ireland so these prospects are not a concern for people. You can say what you like about the Tories but they absolutely understood that when other parties didn't.

It is true that some people are genuinely so ignorant and morally repugnant that they do not give a shit about peace NI; they do seem to intersect with the same people who talk about making Britain Great all the while voting for its break up.

The upshot of which is simply the extent of extraordinary stupidity in this country.

@TatianaBis,

So my government report is ‘spin’ but your data, which comes from a censured accountancy/consultant whose main clients are in financial services, is the unvarnished unbiased truth?!

I’ll take a government report any day.

That you seem genuinely confused as to which is more likely to be accurate explains a lot.

You can't just will positivity into existence.
Unfortunately... since - as these threads show - Brexit has driven a very, very deep wedge into British society and created/exacerbated tensions that will take a very long time to heal.

The things that matter to many are irrelevant to many others.

That's clear from the remarks on travel here: it is now far harder for young people to travel to EU countries to gain work experience and language skills. Sure, there are other places they can go, but most are far away, expensive and more complex to work/study in than EU countries were.

However, if you're not concerned about that because you/those around you won't be affected, chances are that will make it easier to dismiss others' clear sense of lost opportunities. Particularly if travel is synonymous with tourism in your eyes, rather than with study/apprenticeships/internships/research/work opportunities, which others may be referring to.

My sibling's personal life is being rent asunder by the rules on 90/180 days, while they also struggle to save a successful professional activity, painstakingly built up over several decades.
Maybe they should just get a new life partner, change jobs (because, like, that's easy...) and move on in merry positivity - but that isn't quite as easy to do as it is to write.

I can also see very clearly how badly the UK's reputation has been damaged internationally by Brexit and successive governments' handling of it. That won't blight my days forever more, but it does sadden me, partly because loss of goodwill from your nearest neighbours is never a good thing, but also because I can't yet see any positive outcomes that might make any of this worthwhile.

What do you mean by Move On? If you mean, get on with your daily life, then that's what we have to do whatever the regime in power.

If you mean pretend that Brexit is wonderful - I would want to see some results. So not results of "Project Fear didn't happen", or "Look at how the EU is making a mess of ...." The results I want to see are measurable prosperity - that those in work have no need of food banks to feed their families, that people can afford decent housing, that there is secure work not zero hours stuff, that schools are well staffed and well stocked with enough equipment for all. When we begin to see that, then I will begin to believe that Brexit wasn't bad.

We haven't seen it yet. We certainly haven't seen anything that the Brexiters promised. This link for example, talking about the Norway fishing non deal talks about how Jane Sandell – CEO UK Fisheries Ltd in Hull – says that the UK government has just sunk the ‘British distant waters fleet’ leaving hundreds of crew members out of work. Three years earlier she talked of a bright future for her company and the UK fishing industry. “As a member of the European Union, the UK currently has to rely on negotiators from Brussels to determine the amount of fish it can catch in Norwegian waters. Outside the EU, ministers will be able to strike their own quota deals with Norway after taking back control of British waters.“

As Schnyder points out, if the UK can't manage to negotiate with a small country like Norway, then how is it going to manage when up against the USA, India or Australia. Now this of course may just mean that Johnson for all his noise and three word slogans is a lousy negotiator. It may be that the sunlit uplands will arrive when the Tory party ditch him and put a better negotiator in.

But that hasn't happened yet either.

How patronising to suggest you can only be positive if you are not directly affected. My son is studying languages at uni and of course will be hugely impacted by the ramifications of the demise of the Erasmus scheme for his year abroad.

So yes the loss of that is upsetting but it will be replaced by an alternative scheme, and he will still have the opportunity to work and study abroad, it may not be as good as it would have been under Erasmus but that's just the way it is and he is resilient and will just get on with it.

This sort of attitude really smacks of the approach of the current Labour leadership, ie we know better than the majority of the British population, it's just the stupid general public don't understand the issues.

There is absolutely no benefit to leaving the EU as we have. Putting on a smiley face wont change that.

It may not be as good as it would have been under Erasmus but that's just the way it is and he is resilient and will just get on with it.

Resilience and accepting that things are not as good as they were but just getting on with it aren't actually positive outcomes, are they?

You may reply that that's a patronising question. However, I am struggling to understand the idea that Brexit makes things "not as good" as before, but that people should soldier on and assume a positive attitude nonetheless. If someone legitimately feels that professional opportunities have been curtailed for them and/or their DC, why berate them for not being positive about it?

Patronising though you may deem it, my comment about people's differing standpoints was in reply to a post suggesting that some 'non-positive' people were merely fretting over the ease with which they, as tourists, go through passport controls after Jan 31st. Which is pretty condescending towards those who travel to the EU for more serious reasons than tourism, and for whom that has become less straightforward for reasons that go far beyond passport control.

Brexit makes me feel sad, so I just try not to think about it anymore.

I read elsewhere that our GDP had declined by 9.2% beforehand, so a growth to something a little short of what we had before doesn't exactly sound like a triumph to me.

When I say ‘move on positively’, I do not mean accept that Brexiting is better than remaining, I mean start going forward from where we are rather than continually pining for an (idealised) past.

For some, that may even mean campaigning to rejoin the EU. I respect those with that passion and I understand the sentiment behind it, whilst disagreeing that being in the EU achieves what people believe it does.

What I don’t like is people digging and obsessing over every piece of negative news, such as a tiny spat over fishing, a sector which is entirely irrelevant to our economy. There are some on here who, every time a problem is overcome, look for another one to focus on.

Currently, we are doing pretty well, and certainly better than the Eurozone. @Peregrina, if we get to where we were by year end, in the middle of a global pandemic, that would actually be pretty remarkable.

We have no choice but to accept where we are.

However our PM wanted a hard Brexit and made sure he got one, IMO betraying Theresa May in the process, and then boasted about a Great Deal so I have no problem in holding him to account. As you say, the fishing is of little relevance to our economy but since a big song and dance was made about it, then it's something that the PM should have endeavoured to get right.The fact that the fishermen have immediately complained shows that he didn't.

After seeing yesterday's headlines about the fishing in Jersey, and the show of Patrol boats, I know that this was not diplomacy, and was sign of a deal not properly negotiated. The jingoism exhibited was very reminiscent of the Falklands joingoism, or the headline some years ago "Up Yours Delors".

Then there of course are the much more serious tensions in NI. Major and Blair for all their faults were two of the architects of the GFA which was a huge achievement so I believe it's quite right that their successors are held to account.

Yet again vaccines are trotted out as the only Brexit benefit. Once more its a "how we are better than the EU". Neither the UK nor the EU have, as far as I am aware, particularly covered themselves in glory when it comes to export of vaccines to the poorer nations. I am not sure how the USA has been on this one. On this, all wealthy countries need to be held to account.

As I said earlier, we need to see some real benefits which could not have occurred inside the EU.

Then there of course are the much more serious tensions in NI. Major and Blair for all their faults were two of the architects of the GFA which was a huge achievement so I believe it's quite right that their successors are held to account.

I think you are pissing into the wind on that one. Leave/Tory voters in England have made it absolutely crystal clear they don't give a shit about Ireland.

Kendodd I am quite sure you are right, but I care, and until the UK does split up the PM of the country should also make a show of caring.

Brexit was bought with a dud cheque. I'll not forget nor forgive that.

... and a big shot storm is brewing! Just ask anyone who is in the import / export business and is trading with Europe.

But I believe most people are blinded by corona virus, what a convenience!

For me, the time to move on will be when Brexiters produce some proper evidence on their own terms.

So far - Jersey/French fishing spat - unresolved.
Other CI/French fishing - existing pre Brexit deal extended.
Norway fishing - no deal negotiated, which we were free to do outside the EU.
EU Ambassador - granted full recognition after 4 months.
Priti Patel - so far has failed to get bi-lateral agreements to replace Dublin convention.

For Brexit to be a success, these should all be in the plus column - not the doubtful i.e. still a work in progress or in the negative column.

@Peregrina,

I strongly suspect that you will never move on and, regardless of what happens, you will be looking for this evidence into old age.

Is that really what you want?

Moving on is not about receiving a quasi-mathematical proof that Brexiting was a benefit, which will always be impossible. It is about accepting we are where we are and looking forwards and working towards the best possible future.

When I say ‘move on positively’, I do not mean accept that Brexiting is better than remaining, I mean start going forward from where we are rather than continually pining for an (idealised) past.

Wtf? A past in which I had the right to live abroad however many weeks I chose, could move freely across European borders, could buy stuff direct from France, Italy and Germany that they won’t now send etc.

This was not ‘ideal’ it was just normal.

And that’s just the small stuff that personally affects me, quite apart from the impact on trade and manufacturing, the music industries, arts, science, farming, Erasmus etc.

If you’re one of those people pleasing types who doesn’t like disagreements and wants everyone to get along - you will have to get over it. Remainers will be more rather than less pissed off with time, and all the adversely affected Brexiters will join them.

For me, the time to move on will be when Brexiters produce some proper evidence on their own terms.

Or that cheque bounces.

I am already old in MN terms and I won't be preached at to 'move on'. I have probably done a damn sight more moving on in my life than many.

The Brexiters promised us how life would be better. So far they have failed to deliver. They haven't even delivered for the people who wanted Brexit. We were promised gold plate - I don't see why we should accept tinfoil as a substitute.

Since you are a Brexiter, (I assume) how about you start to move on?You have your Brexit - tell us how your life has improved as a result or what you are going to do to make it improve. You are the ones who need to move on instead of whining at one time Remainers.

Op why is it important to you that remoaners move on? Genuine Question.

And if they did, what would happen?
Is the lack of moving on preventing us in some way from something?

@Peregrina,

Don’t make silly assumptions.

I was a ‘reluctant remainer’. I wished we had never joined but was unenthusiastic about pulling apart a very integrated system.

I have, however, ‘moved on’. Brexit has made minimal difference to me personally. I have family in France and intend to visit as often as I did before. I am expecting it may make a minimal negative difference in terms of hassle and cost.

The only positive is that I am vaccinated and have been for a couple of months.

I do believe in the concept of the nation state, though. This is a concept that the ‘citizens of everywhere’ literally do not understand. Having a common culture, history and language with fellow citizens has a meaning, especially in times of hardship. It is why West Germany allowed the Ostmark and Deutschmark to convert 1:1 but hammered poor little Greece in the Euro crisis.

I am not ‘preaching’ at anyone. You are welcome to hide or ignore this thread. I am giving my opinion in the same way as you all give yours.