I need some positives

[Vegeetas]

Quick preface, I have always believed that two people can think differently about a thing and remain friends. I am not asking this to throw stones at anyone or pick a fight, I am genuinely in need of something to be optimistic about.

My question is two fold. Why did you vote for brexit and what actual benefit do you think it will bring? Everyone I have spoken to that admitted to voting for brexit and Boris haven't been able to suggest even one thing that is positive that we couldn't already do.

Help!

What is happening with the EU ratifying the deal?

The plan was for all 27 member nations to have a jolly good look-see and get together next month. However given the UK hasn't actually started complying with it's obligations, that's rather taken a back seat. It's not happening next month certainly.

DH just said that it's likely they won't now because of the vaccine situation.

which European newspaper was that reported in ?

Thank you DGRossetti. I had lost track of what's going on.
I doubt DH has seen it anywhere. He probably made it up, which is why I thought I'd ask on here.

Is it still possible that No Deal that everyone was worried about at new year could still happen?

The Brexit zealots still want No Deal, so the EU's failure to set a date to ratify will suit them. Even though things changed when the wrong man got elected in America.

I’ve not seen or heard of any benefits, but live in hope
Tax avoidance doesn’t affect us personally
Otherwise, am aware of a fair few downsides

Early days

Nature of this thread (and many like it):

Closed minded remainer asks if anyone can suggest benefits of BREXIT, ostensibly to make them feel better, but actually to shoot any positives down with tired old arguments.

If you seriously cannot see any benefits, then you are either totally closed minded, or thick. You may, rationally, think the disadvantages massively outweigh the advantages, and I totally respect this perspective.

Personally, love Europe, supported the EU when it was a union of similar economies, but dislike the institutions, the gravy train, and the attempt to integrate completely different economies into a trading block with freedom of movement.

Was a reluctant remainer and was disappointed to leave (because already in too deep). But I do want the U.K. to do well, unlike many on here, and believe it is possible to play the Brexit hand to achieve advantages.

@TheReluctantPhoenix
The only reason you seem to have popped up on this thread is to set down your own closed minded (or thick, as you would say?) views, thus:
Those concerned about or against Brexit are a) closed minded
b) thick
c) want to see the UK fail

You are a trolling cliche.
You have no idea of anyone else's background, experience, political leanings, in depth view.
Any potential benefits will be welcomed but also researched and fact-checked.
Meanwhile, thankyou for your constructive contribution. I'm sure it will make everyone more mindful in future.

@DoubleTweenQueen,

If there is anyone trolling, it is you deciding to come on to this thread to attack me, rather than anything I say.

Old grand- you want an irrefutable positive 3 months post Brexit, and you won’t even admit to vaccinations, as no one can ‘prove’ that we wouldn’t have done it irrespective of Brexit.

So you want the impossible, but won’t be held to the same standard yourself.

Old ground even.

@TheReluctantPhoenix I have critiqued your post. I haven't come on here, or any other thread, to be rude to or about anyone. I do not seek to label, undermine and dismiss a whole swathe of people.
You do.

Doubletweenqueen

I haven't come on here, or any other thread, to be rude to or about anyone

Calling someone a troll is quite rude.

@Andante57 I was already on this thread, out of interest.
TRP pops up to be rude, dismiss and undermine.
I think everyone can make up their own minds.

I think everyone can make up their own minds.

About what?

I would love to hear some of the positives for the UK
that were predicted in advance of the vote
(and thus affected voter's decisions)
COVID was not known about until 1000 days after the vote so is not relevant
and are now coming true

@Andante57 About who might be being rude to whom? Honestly - it's your point!

MN truly is the school yard these days

and believe it is possible to play the Brexit hand to achieve advantages.

Well, tell us what you think this Brexit hand is.
Trade is down with our nearest neighbours. That may be what Johnson and Co want, but is having to try to find the same trade with countries literally half way across the world an advantage? If so why? The costs will always be greater by virtue of distance.

Shellfish can't be exported because of EU rules which the UK had a hand in making. So we might get a push to eat more shellfish in the UK? I dare say that wouldn't be a bad idea. It doesn't quite sound like a hand - more part of a little finger.

@peregrina,

We are the 5th largest economy in the World with the freedom (over time) to make our own rules. We can be tougher about some of the things we care about (animal welfare, for instance) but more relaxed about others (stock market valuation caps, for instance).

We can sit quite nicely between EU, the U.S and Asia, allowing as much well educated Hong Kong immigrants in as we want, but limiting immigration for ‘race to the bottom’ type jobs such as crop picking and building labour.

We can position ourselves as a STEM based power house around our world class universities.

Now, of course, you will respond with ‘we could have done all these things within the EU’, but legality and political reality are two different things. We are not playing power games within the EU, which might be quite liberating.

We are also free from worrying about where the EU project is headed and expending political capital fighting against deeper integration.

Yes, as I have already said, much of what I say is nebulous, compared to the jobs already lost and the cost paid by our leaving. But, if you leave comfortable paid employment to set up on your own, the losses are always more quantifiable than the potential gains. It does not make it a wrong decision, though. We are paying for an option. If you want to see the NPV of leaving know, it will always look stupid

We will only know after a few years. Anyone who says they know Brexit was a bad thing now is, I know, not very perceptive. If they strongly believe it to be, I respect that. They are very different.

Sorry I can't see that as positives. Most of them are the brexiter slogans of no downsides but considerable upsides.

We could let Hong Kong citizens in before - you are right, it was a political decision to limit immigration. But Brexiters swear that this wasn't a factor - for a significant number it was, or we would have had an open door policy on immigration.

We were already doing well in science - but there is a real likelihood that we have deliberately sabotaged our efforts there. Many labs were staffed by EU citizens. For those who haven't already gone, it won't be so easy to come in future. If you could move say from France to Germany with FoM but now have to jump through immigration requirements to come to the UK, what are most people likely to do?

We could improve animal welfare standards - we shall see. I can't say that I have seen any great commitment to animal welfare by the current government.

If you think of the last war for example, for many it was devastating being bombed out and losing everything, or losing relatives in battle. But for some like DM and MIL it brought them interesting well paid work which was not open to them earlier. Or DH's grandfather who had been in and out of work during the 30s despite having a trade, again found good quality work and was never unemployed for the rest of his working life. Not that they wanted a war of course, but for them they saw pretty immediate tangible benefits.

We are the 5th largest economy in the world largely because we have enjoyed the wealth benefits of being part of the world's wealthiest trading bloc for the last 40 plus years. We could have done all the things referred to in your last post TRP as EU members.We were the 4th largest world economy a few years ago and will no doubt continue to slip down the ranks. There are no benefits to leaving the EU for the ordinary person in the street. We always had the option to make our own rules and apply higher standards. We were a senior member of the EU and had a large say in the direction of travel, along with opt outs and special treatment galore thanks to Thatcher. We are of very little interest to the US now as we have no EU vote or influence. We are screwed

I agree about the 5th largest economy - when a Brexiter comes along in say two years time, and tells us that we are now the world's 4th, or 3rd largest economy I will hold my hands up and admit I was wrong.

Funnily enough lack of people for the the 'race to the bottom jobs' like crop picking especially are already causing problems. Nor have we stopped playing power games with the EU. But doing now from a position of being a third party, not ones with a seat at the table.

Of course, it could just be that we have a particularly inept Government in charge, one which took Fuck Business as one of its slogans. Maybe a half way competent one would have made a better deal of it? But the chances such a one wouldn't have ruled out being in the CU for a start.

I've got a benefit. The collapse of the UK fishing industry. It does really, really terrible environmental damage.

@Kendodd

I've got a benefit. The collapse of the UK fishing industry. It does really, really terrible environmental damage.

Strange pull but ok. Environmentally speaking I guess that is a positive. Unfortunately the rotting fishing boats will contribute to pollution so I am not sure.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@peregrina,

We are the 5th largest economy in the World with the freedom (over time) to make our own rules. We can be tougher about some of the things we care about (animal welfare, for instance) but more relaxed about others (stock market valuation caps, for instance).

We can sit quite nicely between EU, the U.S and Asia, allowing as much well educated Hong Kong immigrants in as we want, but limiting immigration for ‘race to the bottom’ type jobs such as crop picking and building labour.

We can position ourselves as a STEM based power house around our world class universities.

Now, of course, you will respond with ‘we could have done all these things within the EU’, but legality and political reality are two different things. We are not playing power games within the EU, which might be quite liberating.

We are also free from worrying about where the EU project is headed and expending political capital fighting against deeper integration.

Yes, as I have already said, much of what I say is nebulous, compared to the jobs already lost and the cost paid by our leaving. But, if you leave comfortable paid employment to set up on your own, the losses are always more quantifiable than the potential gains. It does not make it a wrong decision, though. We are paying for an option. If you want to see the NPV of leaving know, it will always look stupid

We will only know after a few years. Anyone who says they know Brexit was a bad thing now is, I know, not very perceptive. If they strongly believe it to be, I respect that. They are very different.[/quote]
I didn’t vote leave but I hope you are right. I like seeing more positive stuff atm

I wouldn’t say I know for sure what will happen but I hope for something more like what you say

"We are the 5th largest economy in the World with the freedom (over time) to make our own rules. We can be tougher about some of the things we care about (animal welfare, for instance) but more relaxed about others (stock market valuation caps, for instance)."

Little to no indication that our current kleptocracy is aiming for anywhere other than the bottom.

We can sit quite nicely between EU, the U.S and Asia, allowing as much well educated Hong Kong immigrants in as we want, but limiting immigration for ‘race to the bottom’ type jobs such as crop picking and building labour.

We did sit nicely between the EU, US and Asia. Now the US and Asia are cutting us out and dealing directly with the EU instead of going via little England. Our "race to the bottom immigration" will be coming mostly from the Indian subcontinent.

We can position ourselves as a STEM based power house around our world class universities.

Our world class universities that are currently losing investment and prestige as they can no longer attract such high calibre foreign students/researchers, thanks to Brexit.

Now, of course, you will respond with ‘we could have done all these things within the EU’, but legality and political reality are two different things. We are not playing power games within the EU, which might be quite liberating.

Now we are trying to play "power games" against the EU. And losing. Badly.

We are also free from worrying about where the EU project is headed and expending political capital fighting against deeper integration.

We can now no longer control the direction of the EU project as we could as a member, yet we are going to be inextricably linked to it for the foreseeable future.

Yes, as I have already said, much of what I say is nebulous, compared to the jobs already lost and the cost paid by our leaving. But, if you leave comfortable paid employment to set up on your own, the losses are always more quantifiable than the potential gains. It does not make it a wrong decision, though. We are paying for an option. If you want to see the NPV of leaving know, it will always look stupid

If you leave a well paid job on a whim without having another job lined up, during a recession, you are going to suffer. And the likelihood of your life working out for the better is, at best, minimal. It's not something you would recommend any person to do. It is, frankly, a stupid idea.

We will only know after a few years. Anyone who says they know Brexit was a bad thing now is, I know, not very perceptive. If they strongly believe it to be, I respect that. They are very different.

We can already see so very much damage being done. Maybe there will be some things that will improve, although I don't see the slightest suggestion of what they might be in reality, not even from Brexiteers. But then they don't seem to be very perceptive, merely proclaiming nebulous bollocks as if they have some knowledge that they clearly don't have.