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Brexit

Westminstenders: Disaster Capitalism.

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/01/2021 13:58

An 'interesting' week. To say the least.

It has highlighted the purpose, point and weaknesses of the EU. It has revealled that the Irish Border is an ongoing issue which can not be ignored. Not only is it causing shortages in NI but it also reminds us that a zero covid strategy for the UK can not be managed unilaterally; we are not New Zealand.

It shows up the changing geo-politics of leaving. We have applied to join the Asia-Pacific free trade pact just a day after Macron told us to chose out allies and reminded us that geography and history have always tied our fate to France.

The epic fuck up of the EU has lead a rallying cry of support for leaving... but covid is currently hiding much of the reality of the implications of Brexit which will yet come out in the wash.

Brexit and Covid are tied together as conjoined twins of economic disaster though. Once restrictions start to lift, the shit will start to hit the fan. The efforts on where to aportion blame will start but it won't be on Brexit. We've known this for some time. Brexit no longer is relevant. Except of course it is. But who is writing the winner's narrative? Things are as they have always been. There is no squirrel. The squirrel is thinking that Brexit and Covid are separate things when those in charge don't.

In terms of the vaccine suggest, I think its worth reflecting on why it was successful. Johnson played the vaccine procurement like a gambler, who bet on all the horses in order to ensure we got a winner. Throwing the kitchen sink at a problem which shut the entire economy down was always the safe option. Especially when it was also a pretty certain bet that there would be unequal rollout and a shortage when one was found. If you think about it in those terms, it easier to see how this has been a success for the government: if only one vaccine was successful, we'd be grateful we'd invested in so many options. If all the vaccines came in good we'd end up in a good place. It was a win:win strategy, and one that was not that hard to do. We now find that whilst we were cutting the International Aid Budget we were also working on soft power that excess vaccine stocks and production capability bring... I note here its actually much harder to pull off successfully if you are considerably larger like the EU because of the sheer numbers involved - the dynamics always favoured the UK and I think this probably was something the UK was aware of and was worked into strategic planning. Other things will be much harder to get such easy political wins on - not least because they still involve the economics of geography and that being smaller is typically a weakness not a strength in trading - vaccines and supply shortages are the ultimate exception not the rule. The rule is proven by the EU's politicking and the threat of a vaccine trade war.

Thus the Tory Party have seen Brexit and Covid as being intrinsically linked for some time. I don't think everyone else has quite managed to wrap their head around the fact that its near impossible at this stage to disentangle to two because of this mentality.

This current batch of Tories are disaster capitalists after all, and the twin of Brexit and Covid is a gift to their ambition.

I'll just remind you what the goal really is here. Remember Johnson's speech at the Tory Party Conference in October:
www.conservatives.com/news/boris-johnson-read-the-prime-ministers-keynote-speech-in-full

We have been through too much frustration and hardship just to settle for the status quo ante – to think that life can go on as it was before the plague; and it will not. Because history teaches us that events of this magnitude – wars, famines, plagues; events that affect the vast bulk of humanity, as this virus has – they do not just come and go.

They are more often than not the trigger for an acceleration of social and economic change, because we human beings will not simply content ourselves with a repair job.

He is fully signed up to the Cummings/Gove school of thought of burn it down and rebuild afresh.

The idea that he cares about sorting out and repairing the problems Brexit brings, miss the ultimate point: He doesn't want to.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 11/02/2021 22:05

I am quite happy to be regarded as consistent. I still think leaving the EU was a mistake, but I am way way down the list in the cutn'paste stakes. I don't think I would win any medals - I would be one of those people coming in near last in a marathon.

TheHateIsNotGood · 11/02/2021 22:05

Carry on prettybird - the likes of me just pop in occasionally offering this and that, some chowder, a few tunes, whatever.

Hardly anyone that voted Leave bounces around in these caves (we're bounding around in the sunlit uplands above doncha know) - it echoes too much down here for me.

But, The Clavster has stayed down here giving you lot someone to rail against at the very least, anyway you won't get placed in the Competition.

RTB and maybe Rosetti are up for 3rd to 5th, with possibly jas coming up from behind to snatch it from them.

There's a few Leavish PPs who should get a look-in but none are so consistent, over time, as those I've mentioned.

And Clav looks unbeatable really, given the extra points for standing alone against so many.

Clavinova · 11/02/2021 22:06

prettybird

You must live in a very confused world. Grin

Peregrina · 11/02/2021 22:09

prettybird lives in Scotland - soon perhaps to be joined by a rush of us, if it gets its independence.

TheElementsSong · 11/02/2021 22:09

Well thank you prettybird Grin and now I'm thinking I shall have to also move to C&Ping pages of Lorem ipsum... because HateIs just doesn't appreciate actual original yards of text, even though I always explain how they indicate the ineffable wondrousness of Brexit.

TheHateIsNotGood · 11/02/2021 22:11

Elements and poss LQ, are worthy of mentions too, but that might have to be a different competition.

This one is Consistency Over Time In the Face of Adversity (Brexit-related).

ListeningQuietly · 11/02/2021 22:15

I try to post my own thoughts and links to information that supports or challenges my thoughts

I try never to post quotes without sources

I try to fact check

In fact I just had to fact check edit one of my own FB posts this evening as although it reinforced my views, it niggled
and it was indeed false
so I flagged it up to my friends as such

EVIDENCE
EVIDENCE
EVIDENCE

DrBlackbird · 11/02/2021 22:24

I clicked on this heading Who might replace Simon Stevens as the NHS England boss? and lo and behold who is one of the names being mooted?... ......

....Dido Harding Confused

The fact that Test n Trace has seen billions wasted might not have saved us from a covid pandemic, but it may, just maybe, save us from Dido as NHS Chief Exec.

However... as Johnson wants to be personally involved in the choice, we may find ourselves wishing for Dido if his choice turns out to be someone like Toby Young?

Bets on for equally impressive replacements?

TheHateIsNotGood · 11/02/2021 22:25

The funny thing is that the usual MN Mantra goes not wanting to be judgemental but...and I've gone against the grain and appointed myself a Judge Grin.

LQ - has Teacher set you some lines? Looks like you can spell 'evidence' but you might want to rethink using FB as a source of 'evidence'?

HoneysuckIejasmine · 11/02/2021 22:38

@TheHateIsNotGood

The funny thing is that the usual MN Mantra goes not wanting to be judgemental but...and I've gone against the grain and appointed myself a Judge Grin.

LQ - has Teacher set you some lines? Looks like you can spell 'evidence' but you might want to rethink using FB as a source of 'evidence'?

You may want to work on your comprehension.
HappyWinter · 11/02/2021 22:54

@DrBlackbird

I clicked on this heading Who might replace Simon Stevens as the NHS England boss? and lo and behold who is one of the names being mooted?... ......

....Dido Harding Confused

The fact that Test n Trace has seen billions wasted might not have saved us from a covid pandemic, but it may, just maybe, save us from Dido as NHS Chief Exec.

However... as Johnson wants to be personally involved in the choice, we may find ourselves wishing for Dido if his choice turns out to be someone like Toby Young?

Bets on for equally impressive replacements?

Not a good track record?
Bee0808 · 11/02/2021 23:08

🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿

BlackeyedSusan · 12/02/2021 01:32

Tennis Football Glitterball

To NHS CE choices.

I suppose a 26 or 27 month waiting list might be in future the good old days.....

mathanxiety · 12/02/2021 02:51

@Clavinova

www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3724329

Crown Office

THE QUEEN has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm dated 25 January 2021 to confer the dignity of a Barony of the United Kingdom for life upon the following:

In the forenoon

Daniel John Hannan, by the name, style and title of BARON HANNAN OF KINGSCLERE, of Kingsclere in the County of Hampshire.

I'm sure she was pleased as punch.

mathanxiety · 12/02/2021 04:40

The City is a major global financial centre, dominating the world’s multi-trillion dollar currency markets and far out-ranking other hubs in Europe. Financial services contributed £132bn to the British economy in 2019, a prize which has been jealously eyed by EU politicians.

A centre of such scale must be able to set its own rules, the Governor said, within the worldwide framework which has grown in importance since the financial crisis...

“...The EU has argued it must better understand how the UK intends to amend or alter the rules going forwards. This is a standard that the EU holds no other country to and would, I suspect, not agree to be held to itself.”

Andrew Bailey does realise that many people in Europe understand English, right?

mathanxiety · 12/02/2021 04:48

In response, London has lifted a prohibition on trading of Swiss stocks, such as Nestlé and Roche, which is currently banned on EU exchanges.

It would be nice to see Andrew Bailey's take on this move.

lonelyplanetmum · 12/02/2021 08:48

So outrageous about Daniel Hannan- tricking the electorate with stuff like “..absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market” and that spin entitles you to a place in the Lords.

On the subject of trickery I remembering the posts back when Michael Gove was singing the praises of Brexit at the 2017 Conservative party conference. I posted more often then. Gove was then the environment secretary and falsely said that a huge economic benefit from Brexit would come from selling pigs’ ears to China (once we ditched rules on animal labelling ).

Gove was wrong (of course) but just thought of it again with the contrasting reality of this recent article.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-55997320

(Contrast with Gove’s previous enthusiasm for pig farmers’ opportunities:

https://www.farminguk.com/news/british-farmers-will-be-able-to-sell-more-pigs-ears-after-brexit-gove-states_47545.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/03/michael-gove-made-a-pigs-ear-of-it-over-eu-animal-rules-say-farmers

KonTikki · 12/02/2021 09:37

I enjoy Clavinova's posts. To her credit she is meticulous in giving her sources to enable fact checking.
A constant drip drip of negativity to Brexit would become very tedious. And I say that as a Remainer.
There is a counter arguement, and she is welcome to express it on these threads.

I note that RTB also doesn't shy away from criticising the EU when they make fools of themselves.

Clavinova · 12/02/2021 09:57

lonelyplanetmum
So outrageous about Daniel Hannan- tricking the electorate with stuff like “..absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market”

That quote is from a Channel 4 News interview, May 2015 - a year before the referendum vote took place - dug up retrospectively by the Remain camp to claim that voters were not told we would be leaving the single market.

Channel 4 News mentioned here Feb 2016;

"Farage also said earlier in a debate with [Anna] Soubry on Channel 4 News that he wants the UK to be "independent, self-governing, making our own laws", and not a part of the European Single Market and political union which forbids "us from making our own trade deals".

www.cityam.com/eu-referendum-ukip-leader-nigel-farage-says-he-doesnt-want-to-be-part-of-the-european-single-market/

BBC June 2016;
"David Cameron confirmed Sunday that he will pull Britain out of the single market if there is a vote to leave the European Union at the upcoming referendum."

"He said the Brexit campaign had made it clear to voters that voting to leave also meant pulling out of the single market."

www.politico.eu/article/david-cameron-bbc-andrew-marr-ill-pull-uk-out-of-the-single-market-after-brexit-eu-referendum-vote-june-23-consequences-news/

On the topic of farming - Guardian columnist George Monbiot yesterday;

I've just finished my research on the EU's farm and biofuel policies. As a Remainer, I feel obliged to admit that if the bloc were judged on these issues alone, it would be one of the most corrupt, perverse, self-serving, wasteful and destructive political bodies on Earth.
7:48 AM · Feb 11, 2021

Clavinova · 12/02/2021 10:00

KonTikki

Thank you. Smile

TatianaBis · 12/02/2021 10:03

@KonTikki

I enjoy Clavinova's posts. To her credit she is meticulous in giving her sources to enable fact checking. A constant drip drip of negativity to Brexit would become very tedious. And I say that as a Remainer. There is a counter arguement, and she is welcome to express it on these threads.

I note that RTB also doesn't shy away from criticising the EU when they make fools of themselves.

@KonTikki

There are counter arguments, but Clavinova does not make any. She simply C&Ps links she hasn’t read properly. If you enjoy that why not start a thread for her elsewhere.

Clavinova · 12/02/2021 10:19

mathanxiety
Also via your link:

Crown Office
20 July 2009
The Queen has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm dated 20 July 2009 to confer the dignity of a Barony of the United Kingdom for life upon Sir Alan Michael Sugar, Knight, by the name, style and title of BARON SUGAR, of Clapton in the London Borough of Hackney.
www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/E-26660-1

Crown Office
The Queen has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm dated 16 May 2005 to confer the dignity of a Barony of the United Kingdom for life upon Andrew Adonis, Esquire, by the name, style and title of Baron Adonis, of Camden Town in the London Borough of Camden.
www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/L-57644-1008

I am not going to post (as you did) that you could call them Lord Sugar and Lord Adonis - because you should call them Lord Sugar and Lord Adonis. On the other hand, Baroness Boothroyd , Baroness Brady and Baroness Lawrence etc. is fine.

However, you can stick with Baron Sugar and Baron Adonis if you insist.

TheElementsSong · 12/02/2021 10:23

🐿 The iridescent sheen on the surface of puddles and ditches isn’t always caused by a polluting oil spill. Often, it’s a colony of iron-oxidising bacteria (such as Leptothrix) that derive the energy they need by oxidising dissolved ferrous iron in the water. You can tell the difference between an oil slick and a bacterial colony by poking it gently with a stick; oil will swirl, but the bacteria will break up into little rafts. Eventually, if the water is stagnant, you’ll also find the appearance of orange deposits which make the puddle look even more sadly polluted - this, in fact, is rust!

These drip drip drips of bacterial water are a clear indication that Brexit is completely marvellous because it's purely down to the lying negative words and emotions of Remainers on here that any issues at all are observed, and therefore I want a head pat from Leavers! 🐿

Peregrina · 12/02/2021 10:28

There are counter arguments, but Clavinova does not make any.

Quite. It all boils down to EU bad; Johnson and cronies can do no wrong. When it should be much more nuanced.

borntobequiet · 12/02/2021 10:29

The reality is that British businesses are being damaged - most notably in the farming and fishing sectors, but others too - an international treaty has been intentionally broken, no trade deals have been signed (or look likely to be signed ) that give the UK anything more than marginally and unimportantly more than we had as EU members, British citizens are being inconvenienced if they wish to travel to or work in the EU, time and money are having to be spent on bureaucratic processes, etc, etc...and all in the interests of solving an internal Conservative party dispute that has been rumbling on for fifty years or so. The Leave campaign was based on lies and jingoistic rhetoric designed to appeal to the uninformed and bigoted and ably supported by the right wing press acting in the interests of its millionaire proprietors and others with ulterior financial and political motives.
We have gained nothing, and lost our credibility as a nation. There are no upsides to Brexit, none whatsoever.