Westminstenders: Move Your Business To The EU

[RedToothBrush]

The government is advising people to move their businesses to the EU to avoid UK taxation and red tape.

Why would you do this?

For the interests of the uk?

Or is it about power WITHIN the uk?

The software problems with CHIEF should and could have been tested YEARS ago. They should and could have been rectified YEARS ago.

CHIEF is another 'old' government system, i suspect that its either in the 'too dangerous to touch' state or the support contract doesn't really cover change in any kind of realustic timeframe/cost - there are lots of government systems like that - original expertise having been lost in outsourcing.

It was known over 2 years ago that it was incapable of handling post brexit loads/complexity and a replacement eventually ordered - but of course that is late - it was always unrealistic to deliver a replacement in time let alone early enough to rehearse.

@SabrinaThwaite

Johnson is damaged goods.

I see the Pritti Awful has made noises about how she wanted to close the borders last year. Code for: I can make those difficult decisions. Is this her first foray into a leadership challenge?

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55733357

Priti Awful - perish the thought. I thought Cameron was bad, and then May came along, who seemed worse, then Johnson who is most definitely worse but Patel......Words fail me.

Still I expect the gammons in the Tory party have had enough women PMs for now, and an Asian one - probably a step too far for their racist minds to contemplate.

Thank you RTB.

I was discussing with my 13 year old son today - why Starmer is so quiet.

DS thinks it's a problem and that it's similar to Corbyn being absent/non confrontational.

Is it a problem? I realise he's isolating at this very minute - but do feel that he is generally very absent. Is that a tactic?

In the past the opposition have been so much more vocal and present.

My son thinks the Tories are likely to get in again because of this. He's very young and naive - so I shouldn't be worried. But I am.

Dustyboots you may be interested in this opinion piece for the evening standard. Its by George Osborne.

www.standard.co.uk/comment/keir-starmer-labour-covid-b901186.html
Starmer’s leadership is in trouble because Labour has nothing to say

I made a similar point a while back.

I've seen another article (forget who by - might have been George Monbiot?) saying the same.

For me there is no passionate belief or vision for the future that motivates or inspires. Labour does seem to know what it stands for or what its purpose is. Its a bit directionless.

The factor it seems to be a common thread is a real issue.

If you get a chance to listen to Linda Bauld and Sir Michael Marmot on Radio 4 Today at 07:35 this morning - it’s well worth it.

Places the blame for such a poor UK Covid response on:

Huge rise in health inequalities over last 10 years
Lack of investment in public sector
Massive fall in health spending over last 10 years (25% per head)
High level of non-communicable disease in population
Failure to recognise a pandemic and not a flu
Complete unpreparedness for pandemic
Failure to close borders
Failure of test / trace / isolate system, private sector organisation of it was appalling
Politicians too quick to blame public behaviour as cause of spread

None of the above will be any surprise to those who are regulars on this thread, but it was good to hear it outlined so clearly.

For me there is no passionate belief or vision for the future that motivates or inspires. Labour does seem to know what it stands for or what its purpose is. Its a bit directionless.

Also knows as centrism

Just about Starmer and Labour ...... I agree with George Osbourne , but also I think the problem is nobody really knows what they stand for. I saw John Ashworth interviewed on he news (either C4 or sky) about the Covid crisis, it was so unispiring - he had nothing to say - just calling on the government to explain their policy. Now I know he is actually pretty on to it with Covid - because he has been on independent sage a number of times asking questions.
They need to talk about why the government are failing (which they are) and what they would do differently. It's like there so worried about being attacked - they have nothing to say. They need to put a stake in the ground and stand for something.

I mean schools going back - independent sage have written a paper on what needs to happen - it's based in science and public health - that would be a place for them to start , but all the re saying is what's the governments plan - to many that appears to be them pushing schools back , which many teachers and parents alike are horrified about......

I've only read part of the George Osborne article - I'll go back and read more.

What leapt out at me was Osborne's outline of the constituencies Labour should be targeting - particularly business.

I found that fascinating.

These threads have long discussed the takeover of the Conservative Party by such a small, right wing group. And how that has left a gaping hole in the political structure of the U.K. (or possibly re-modelled it), and how business has really lost any place in the Conservative Party.

The first part of that article reads to me like Osborne telling anyone who will listen that there is a whole section of the electorate and donors who might formerly have been considered Conservative territory but have now been absolutely abandoned and are up for grabs.

The problem for Labour, I think, is that there is still a civil war going on about who Labour is for.

Every time Starmer reaches out to businesses, for example, and gets donors, there is an outcry amongst a section.

Osborne's right. Starmer is going to have to choose at some point. And it's going to be interesting to see what happens.

I'm ... nervous, myself. As I'm sure you've all intuited over the years, I'd like a Labour Party placed to pick up on business support. But I know that the mere idea of this is anathema to many.

Anyway, I'll go back and finish that article. It's certainly interesting.

I've only read part of the George Osborne article

After you strip support from disabled people, made it harder for them to even get the financial help they need let alone have help from a functioning local authority that hasnt had its budget destroyed due to austerity, I honestly dont give a fuck what he has to say

Justanotherposter00

Yes, I imagine lots of people would call it centrism.

But, you know, we humans have a problem: we interpret the present and the future through the lens of the past.

Often that's great: things don't change much; we can draw on prior lessons learnt and previous experience; we don't have to expend much energy.

But sometimes it's disastrous. It can stop us recognising that there has been a radical shift and our old thinking is massively hindering us.

It's the strange dilemmas of the 'Angel of history' that Benjamin is so good at analysing.

My feeling: we have gone through, and are still going through, a seismic shift. Our old political constituencies and groupings have radically altered.

The Conservative Party is the clearest expression of this : it is a thing transformed. And that has all sorts of ramifications.

And underneath those ramifications are the forces and changes that permitted this radical altering of the Conservatives.

So far, our answers have been a delve into the past: shall we move to 'the Left'? Shall we do 'a Blair' and try and capture some ex-Conservatives'?

None of that really works because none of it really grasps how different the terrain now is.

It's odd that the shift has proved so damaging for Labour (and the Liberals), whilst the Conservatives have managed to hold on to power.

It's odd that the shift has proved so damaging for Labour (and the Liberals), whilst the Conservatives have managed to hold on to power.

I wonder if part of the problem is the neo liberal aspect, I just cant think of a way you can hold neo liberal beliefs and support/want and be part of the left, I dont mean my usual 'if you dont vote for my version of Labour your a Tory' but if you are meant to be for the workers/unions and receive donations from the unions its a bit to then be in hoc to those businesses when your asking them to treat/pay their workers fairly

Some would happily have Labour drift further right than it was under Blair while telling themselves theyre still lefties/centrists

I thought that Osborne article written in a surprisingly friendly as well as exasperated tone and very clear in telling Labour where they have gone wrong and what they should do. Labour’s problem is a collective lack of imagination.. They seem oddly constrained by process and image and lacking in anyone who truly understands the nature of power and its potential. At least Corbyn, as leader, understood this and made an effort to impose his vision - the problem was that it didn’t appeal to half of his party, let alone the voting public.

I'm still thinking ...

Part of that article isn't about voters, it's about donors and ideology.

I think Osborne is fundamentally correct. The present Conservative Party has abandoned business - including the financial sector, which is an engine of the U.K. economy.

The implications of that are pretty huge.

I know this won't be popular but I, personally, think the Corbyn phenomenon was a nostalgia-based response: looking at the huge changes and choosing to step back into a wish that we could go back to a kind of utopia. Like responses to the industrial Revolution that were about reclaiming an agrarian past.

Mixed in with that were, indeed, futuristic elements - such as a recognition of the rise in inequality, the re-organisation of axes of exploitation.

But I would still say, futuristic as those elements were, the response was fundamentally nostalgic.

However, to reformulate the Labour Party to encompass the potential new constituencies requires a reorganisation of ideology that goes some way beyond 'centrism'.

Given how many members are still wedded to the dreams that found a focus in Corbyn, I'm really not sure Starmer can effect that shift.

And yet, the current pattern will not hold. Not just for Labour, either: for our political system.

And I think the inability of our present political groupings to undergo what might be quite a shift may well keep on delivering disproportionate amounts of power to this relatively small group of new right economic libertarians.

Labour is afraid of losing potential voters. So it doesn't dare say anything that may put anyone off. So it says nothing.
It might be more successful if it took a stand and tried to win people over.

@JustAnotherPoster00

It's odd that the shift has proved so damaging for Labour (and the Liberals), whilst the Conservatives have managed to hold on to power.

I wonder if part of the problem is the neo liberal aspect, I just cant think of a way you can hold neo liberal beliefs and support/want and be part of the left, I dont mean my usual 'if you dont vote for my version of Labour your a Tory' but if you are meant to be for the workers/unions and receive donations from the unions its a bit to then be in hoc to those businesses when your asking them to treat/pay their workers fairly

Some would happily have Labour drift further right than it was under Blair while telling themselves theyre still lefties/centrists

I think this is very true.

It requires a quite radical ideological shift.

But, frankly, reality has shifted.

The old discourses that described capitalism and arranged its victors and losers, does not adequately describe present reality.

Because the reality is that businesses and even the finance sector have been shafted. Along with all their workers.

And, yes, the traditional Left narratives about capitalism's exploitation of workers still holds true, along with the fact of this new reality.

So, yes, we need a narrative that comprehends this, along with an ideology that can deliver progress.

The thing is Starmer is more popular than Corbyn.

He just hasn't shown anything to get him over the line yet.

Agree, Red.

The thing is Starmer is more popular than Corbyn.

He's getting less hostility, is that the same?

Yes, Red.

He's more popular with voters than Corbyn. By a million miles.

And I think he's the only thing about the Labour Party many voters like.

However, within the Party ... things are very different. Very different.

This may really surprise anyone who isn't in the Labour Party. 😁

But that insecurity of popularity within the Labour party is a huge issue.

Nevertheless, he is going to have to choose.

And it may well be that he is hammered for it within the Labour Party.

Which will be baffling for anyone outside the Party.

That said, he does have quite a lot of organisational security at the moment. So it probably is nearing the optimum moment for him to do something. 🤷‍♀️

@JustAnotherPoster00

The thing is Starmer is more popular than Corbyn.

He's getting less hostility, is that the same?

No.

The thing is Starmer is more popular than Corbyn.

Should have also said, who gives a fuck about Corbyn, old news, is that all the centrists want is for Starmer to just be better than Corbyn? Starmer captain obvious and hindsight who is willing to capitulate and go along with a Tory brexit instead of abstaining

You know, I think Osborne is saying that there's an opening for a U.K. version of the US Democrats.

Two problems:

1. As we see from the US, that has it's issues. Not least among them that it drives many unrepresented people to populism, there's a hunger for more radical policies, and there is a huge issue about balancing what is essentially an alliance of interests (and a mosaic of identity politics).

1. I'm really not sure the Labour Party is the vehicle for such a shift. Its membership and history make such a shift quite difficult.

1. I think such a shift is still captured by C20 political thinking.

But I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this.

2. I'm really not sure the Labour Party is the vehicle for such a shift. Its membership and history make such a shift quite difficult.

I agree

I think the Labour party do need to split, unfortunately if they do I think it will destroy both factions in the process to cheers of joy from every single side of politics in this country. Theres no appetite for progressive policies just tinkering along the edges of a broken system and expecting us to want the crumbs so populism is all youre going to be left with while those who have a vested interest in keeping the system exactly as it is continue to get richer in the process as people get angrier and get pushed further to the right, wait until that new Murdoch TV channel gets going

I think Annaliese Dodds, the Shadow Chancellor, is very clever and beginning to get noticed in many quarters.

mobile.twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1352209430893490176

www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2021/01/anneliese-dodds-mais-lecture-articulates-labour-s-new-approach-economics

labour.org.uk/press/anneliese-dodds-mais-lecture-to-the-business-school-at-city-university-london/