Westministenders: Where's my milk and cheese?

[RedToothBrush]

The 'smooth' exit from transition now leads to a million and one little things that you can't get hold of or took completely for granted.

Why is sainsbury in NI selling spa milk? Why can't you get hold of your favourite food stuff?

Its a slow strangulation of the country.

In which you get to learn all about the merits of the EU and what a donkey Johnson really is.

MrsLaughan I saw that too, the relaxation of important environmental protections is already starting. Not sure how we protest effectively Peregrina, do you think any environmental charities will pick it up? Not sure how effective the online petitions are?

@LetThemEatSovereignty I don't think the EU has a massive amount of the moderna vaccine at the moment either! I think it's the one with the most US-centric early distribution. The U.K. has plenty of the AstraZeneca one though. It doesn't seem that vaccine stocks are the limiting factor at the moment.

Tbh while there are clearly problems with the UK's vaccination programme, the NHS is almost uniquely well-equipped to run a mass vaccination campaign because it's a truly national institution in which public confidence is high. The roll out so far has been quicker than most other European countries even accounting for the head start due to early approval.

At the moment, I feel they are evil, but how do we protest effectively?
Indeed

@ListeningQuietly

At the moment, I feel they are evil, but how do we protest effectively? Indeed

Effective protest has to hurt you before it hurts them - otherwise they will just call you domestic terrorists and that's an end to it.

The bus boycott in Montgomery was incredibly hard on the community that undertook it - but eventually it hurt the bus company more.

This is why bread and circuses has always worked. As long as people are "OK" it's very hard to motivate them to protest. Yes, they can sign a petition. They might go on a march. But we all know wat good that's ever done. Fuck all of fuck all.

That statue would still be standing if protest hadn't become a tad more direct.

[quote mrslaughan]Tbh - this actually upset me the most.... I think because they disbanding of a select commis the sort of thing we have come to expect..... but this has such huge ramifications for the environment abs planet and further generations....plus I keep bees , and just live them

twitter.com/peterstefanovi2/status/1347844717845868546?s=21[/quote]
I saw someone arguing that as pesticide was sprayed at night when bees are asleep then it’s ok & has no impact.

With regard vaccine roll out - local surgery to me has none left & no idea when getting more do cancelling next weeks appointments.

@eve - the residue in plants kills them though...... I am sure you are not agreeing with them.
Also living in a rural area I don't see or hear spraying happen at night.... but I see plenty during the day....

That statue would still be standing if protest hadn't become a tad more direct.

Yes, that is why the Poll tax protests became effective - otherwise respectable members of the community were prepared to go to prison for non-payment.

@Peregrina

That statue would still be standing if protest hadn't become a tad more direct.

Yes, that is why the Poll tax protests became effective - otherwise respectable members of the community were prepared to go to prison for non-payment.

I don't like saying that though. There really should be no such thing as "good" violence. Because then you start having "good" racism, or "good" sexism. Leading ultimately to "good" murder with capital punishment.

That said, I have thought a lot about why - if I was on a jury - I would acquit of charges of criminal damage or affray, or whatever the state wanted to try to make an example of ....

• It's not like the protesters had not tried the "official channel" for decades
• No one was hurt, or from reports overly alarmed or distressed. (whether by design or chance I know not)
• The damage was specifically limited to pulling the statue down - not an excuse for a pair of trainers and a flat screen
• the crowd seemed to disperse once the deed was done

taken as a while justifying it being called a political act, rather than simply criminal.

If nothing else, it should have served to highlight the fact that in a society that was made multicultural by the buccaneering world beating British in the past, it's entirely possible that two British Citizens might have differing emotions on seeing a statue in a public place, and a decent and inclusive society would acknowledge that as a fact and be aware that times can change.

I still would like to see that Colston statue in the Bristol museum, along with a display detailing the events that led to it being there. So we can all learn from it, one day in the future when we can walk free again.

Thank you @Mistigri...I've read about supply problems in UK, but it is so difficult to know what is going on!

@LetThemEatSovereignty it doesn't seem like vaccine availability is the limiting factor anywhere so far ... though it might be the case in the U.K. at some point because of the relatively fast roll out.

My opinion is that vaccine supply planning is probably quite conservative and there is a good chance the ramp-up of production will exceed expectations.

But going to Prison for non payment of the Poll tax mostly hurt the people involved by giving them a criminal record.

I would acquit of charges of criminal damage or affray, or whatever the state wanted to try to make an example of ....

Maybe modest fine is appropriate, proportionate to the cost of fishing the statue out of the river and cleaning it up.

@Peregrina

But going to Prison for non payment of the Poll tax mostly hurt the people involved by giving them a criminal record.

I would acquit of charges of criminal damage or affray, or whatever the state wanted to try to make an example of ....

Maybe modest fine is appropriate, proportionate to the cost of fishing the statue out of the river and cleaning it up.

You can only work with the tools you have. I would not have made anyone involved criminals. If that meant no chance to get money for cleaning then bad luck. Fix your broken justice system.

Going to prison only hurts the prisoner - in the UK and US it just makes the mates of the government that big more wealthy. They like lots of prisoners.

The IRA had it note-perfect when they twigged what the score was. And I can only imagine it took so long because they started young and had lost the experience of the 1920s. Because they had this idealistic notion that a few outrages and innocent people killed would make the British sit up and take notice. They had to learn how thick we are as a nation and then adapt.

There really should be no such thing as "good" violence.

This is the problem. Trump inciting whites to protest was in his eyes, good violence, until the world sat up and condemned it.

Black violence - criminal.

With the IRA I recall that they bombed the City of London, doing untold commercial loss, and wham, Thatcher suddenly started negotiating. I don't recall whether any lives were lost?

"Because they had this idealistic notion that a few outrages and innocent people killed would make the British sit up and take notice. They had to learn how thick we are as a nation and then adapt."

I don't agree with "thick". "Callous", yes; "Contempt for life", yes. They would - and have - thrown any number of lives away.

I think Thatcher did not want to negotiate with the IRA because she did not want to recognise them in any way.
There was nothing good about sectarian violence in Northern Ireland.
I became a vegetarian to dodge Trump's chlorine washed chicken that was going to be foisted on us (and I won't be eating fish either!).
You can live a life that avoids the harms as much as possible.
I can think of several examples of Quaker protesters who were not punished for breaking law in peace protests (including a woman who swam out to a nuclear submarine and hung a sign on it).
Can Boris etc. control the law as it is enacted? I would think there are plenty of small c conservative people who have what the Conservatives are doing (should change their name to Destroyers)

Hate, not have

With the IRA I recall that they bombed the City of London, doing untold commercial loss, and wham, Thatcher suddenly started negotiating. I don't recall whether any lives were lost?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Bishopsgate_bombing

The Bishopsgate bombing occurred on 24 April 1993, when the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) detonated a powerful truck bomb on Bishopsgate, a major thoroughfare in London's financial district, the City of London. Telephoned warnings were sent about an hour beforehand, but a news photographer was killed in the blast and 44 people were injured, with fatalities minimised due to it occurring on a Saturday. The blast destroyed the nearby St Ethelburga's church and wrecked Liverpool Street station and the NatWest Tower.[1][2]

In case anyone wondered why the IRA used to telephone warnings to newspapers, it was because they knew if they just called the police, any warning could be "lost" to allow the government the benefit of a lot more casualties. After all, we should all know how many of us they are willing to sacrifice for their careers.

However after a decade of civilian targets, the sudden effectiveness of the City stands out like the nose on your face. In fact the only benefit of Brexit I can think of now, is it's made it highly unlikely that the City will be a future target. In fact any renewed attacks might get more traction if it was an Andrex factory ?

Since late DF was a Quaker, I have grown up knowing quite a few who were conscientious objectors during the last war and went to prison for their beliefs. DF ended up with an unconditional discharge after his Tribunal.

There was nothing good about sectarian violence in Northern Ireland.

Republican violence was not sectarian. Its purpose was to get freedom from the UK. Peaceful protests did not work (just look at bloody Sunday). The republicans targeted the establishment. Local establishment tended to be protestant but that was by the by. That said, I'm sure there was plenty of sectarian bigotry in Republican circles.

Loyalist violence tended to be more sectarian in nature. They generally targeted catholics specifically.

I'm not suggesting either was acceptable or one was morally superior to the other but it is important to dispel the notion that the troubles were solely sectarian in nature.

@Tanith

"Because they had this idealistic notion that a few outrages and innocent people killed would make the British sit up and take notice. They had to learn how thick we are as a nation and then adapt."

I don't agree with "thick". "Callous", yes; "Contempt for life", yes. They would - and have - thrown any number of lives away.

No, we are thick. As a nation. Thick as mince.

If someone is trying to blow seven bells out of you - over a period of many years - then you think you'd do a little to educate yourself ? I know I did.

Nope, we just sat back, let the government spoon feed us the "nasty people" line, and let the bombs bang forever. Bearing in mind the UK knew damn well in 1969 that it could not win any sustained engagement with the IRA. And the IRA knew they could not win against the British army.

I can't recommend P.J.O;Rourkes "Holidays in Hell" enough. But you need to buy an early edition as reprints (for reasons I have been unable to fathom) have the chapter where he tours Ireland missing. But it's an eye-opener.

I think Thatcher did not want to negotiate with the IRA because she did not want to recognise them in any way.

Yes, sticking her fingers in her ears while we were being bombed seemed to make them go away didn't it ?

Republican violence was not sectarian.

Some protestants were in the IRA, and some Unionists were catholic. As the aforementioned O'Rourke discovered.

Once again, being old, or knowing history, helps. Irish nationalists had to see Britain giving back (albeit very grudgingly) huge chunks of Empire to a soapy handjob from the world, and they got forgotten and forced to be British - as Stewart Lee surgically noted.

Nope, we just sat back, let the government spoon feed us the "nasty people" line, and let the bombs bang forever.

What is even more bizarre is the recruitment campaigns for the IRA that were run by the UK. Actions like bloody Sunday, internment without trial, the treatment of the hunger strikers, the daily aggressions against members of the nationalist community, all contributed hugely to recruitment. You would think they might have learned from the actions during the Easter Rising and the war of independence.

I can't recommend P.J.O;Rourkes "Holidays in Hell" enough. But you need to buy an early edition as reprints (for reasons I have been unable to fathom) have the chapter where he tours Ireland missing. But it's an eye-opener.

Completely agree with you. I also can't fathom why it's not in the newer editions.

Very belated PMK - thanks to @RedToothBrush et al
(goes back to read thread)

What is even more bizarre is the recruitment campaigns for the IRA that were run by the UK. Actions like bloody Sunday, internment without trial, the treatment of the hunger strikers, the daily aggressions against members of the nationalist community, all contributed hugely to recruitment. You would think they might have learned from the actions during the Easter Rising and the war of independence.

These are the people that were schooled by the people that ran the fucking British Empire for fucks sake. So they should have known from India, or any number of African countries how exactly revolt and uprisings go.