Westministenders: The Beginning of Negotiations

[RedToothBrush]

Transition has a few hours left.

Then negotiations start and trade stops.

Far from being over, there are huge numbers of issues that lay unresolved.

And businesses both now in the UK and EU will cease to trade with each other just because the red tape is such a pain.

So whilst people will celebrate and think things are 'done' that just shows how much people are paying attention.

It will be interesting to see people gradually realising what has been lost...

Perhaps as well schools, teachers and involved parents could finally see the point of being linked into official joint relationships via the local geographic -based accountable councils, and of having some public IT knowledge and advisory expertise in the national house given their struggles with tech solutions.

I thought it showed up the degeneration on this website as well - once upon a time there would have been a few IT people knowing their stuff on here instead of an amateur trying to get a few links to experts heard across the cacophony of “public always bad” and “magic black box solves everything somehow, magically”.

Of course people for saw it. I mean I’m a humanities pansy and even I knew a pandemic was the biggest threat facing us because I read the new scientist while sitting on the toilet sometimes.

As for NI - didn't the Brexiters promise that they would have the best of both worlds? Which in itself was an odd promise, because it implied that there was a benefit being in the EU, whereas we know that the EU is all bad

As I said, blatant lying. Although as Johnson presumably didn't actually read the WA or the NI protocol or the deal, he may actually have believed it was possible because unicorns.

Johnson lying?

No Shit Sherlock. This statement is going to be overused in the next few months, I think.

Turns out that not having queues at ports is worse than having them. It means the lorries are stuck somewhere unable to even move in the right direction.

One of my projects with weighbridges years ago, was to hold HGVs that weighed out of tolerance. It was to solve the problem where drivers simply picked up the first load they saw, and disappeared up or down the M6 (from Stoke) with the wrong load. Which happened at least twice a week.

It's amazing the costs involved. Because you don't just have one wasted journey, but at least two. More if the next driver doesn't spot their missing load and put the next load they see on and disappear into the night ...

Seen on Facebook: Leamoaners.

I ran out of fucks a long time ago. Right now I am out of facepalms too, and rapidly running out of energy (I am bouncing between work and homeschooling, finishing last night at 10:30pm. This post is happening between two zoom calls).

I think NSS is going to take place alongside FFS in my shorthand. As for Brexit...yes, it's going to take time for the effects to sink in. Happily, Johnson has not resigned so he will be able to sort them out.

@Mistigri

Unknown unknowns .....

I hesitated to call them unknown unknowns because rules of origin have been clearly flagged by those pesky experts. Unanticipated consequences but not unknowable ones.

Anyway clearly project "no shit Sherlock" is now underway.

I agree. I don't think there have been any unknown unknowns yet. Pretty much every one of the negative consequences thus far are known knowns, as simply looking at existing procedures and requirements for a third country would have allowed them to be identified.

I think they could be described as high-probability, high-impact risks. It is generally accepted that these risks require urgent and immediate mitigation. None of the suggested methods of risk mitigation include burying your head in the sand and saying "It will be fine".

@Peregrina

Seen on Facebook: Leamoaners.

Need to pop in by and post how brilliant it is now Brexit is Done and we've all got what we want. I suspect the dam will hold for now, but it must be under some strain. Although if it does hold up miraculously (be the first thing Boris has built that lasts) it's nice to have a magic phrase to close discussions with ..

But this is what you voted for ...

However I feel we aren't that far from someone posting back "I voted leave, but I didn't vote for this ..." and let the infighting begin.

Hope we've all got the popcorn in.

I think they could be described as high-probability, high-impact risks.

If we are foursquaring it, I'll settle for "I'm not OK, you're not OK"

We could refine this to
But you should be happy, this is what you voted for ...

"I voted leave, but I didn't vote for this ..." and let the infighting begin.

Already started 1st January with the fishermen.

@Peregrina

We could refine this to But you should be happy, this is what you voted for ...

I think just a curt "quit whinging" will do it.

Remember: revenge is a dish best served cold.

@Peregrina

"I voted leave, but I didn't vote for this ..." and let the infighting begin.

Already started 1st January with the fishermen.

Yes, but because they account for fuck all of fuck all of our GDP, no one is going to listen to them. They've gone from star turn to "who ?" in 5 days.

It's when the bigger hitters start whinging. Because the silence from some quarters is curious ...

It's when the bigger hitters start whinging. Because the silence from some quarters is curious ...

And obviously nobody cares about the whinging coming from NI. Given they voted remain, it is pretty justifiable whinging. Although I do have a teeny, tiny feeling of satisfaction at Arlene getting what she voted for in 2016.

And obviously nobody cares about the whinging coming from NI.

Sadly, a lot of people in England struggle to remember NI exists. And as we saw with various ministers and MPs, the ignorance isn't anything people are ashamed of.

Interesting. Some Leavers did talk about scrapping VAT. Time to pile the pressure on Boris to explain when it will happen.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/937720/brexit-news-vat-uk-european-tax-regime-commons-treasury-committee-nicky-morgan

VAT could be SCRAPPED after Brexit: MPs to review taxes as UK prepares to leave EU

I am not sure that Arlene did get what she voted for. She has got some hybrid, which is neither flesh nor fowl nor good red herring.

She certainly hasn't kept the link to Great Britain that May was trying to negotiate. Propping up May's Government didn't bank them any points with her successor: a pharaoh who knew not Joseph.

@DGRossetti

And obviously nobody cares about the whinging coming from NI.

Sadly, a lot of people in England struggle to remember NI exists. And as we saw with various ministers and MPs, the ignorance isn't anything people are ashamed of.

NI was always going to be the sacrificial lamb. At least May's backstop kept NI in the UK, while also maintaining an open border in Ireland. Although that obviously wasn't brexity enough and the only reason she went for it was because she was reliant on DUP votes. Mind you, they objected to that too as the only word the know is "NO".

We won't mention the fact Johnson, a little over a year ago, stated "We will not accept either a Northern Ireland only backstop, that simply doesn't work for the UK." "We've got to come out whole and entire and solve the problems of the Northern Irish border and I'm certain that we can do that. And we're working flat out to do that".

@Peregrina

I am not sure that Arlene did get what she voted for. She has got some hybrid, which is neither flesh nor fowl nor good red herring.

She certainly hasn't kept the link to Great Britain that May was trying to negotiate. Propping up May's Government didn't bank them any points with her successor: a pharaoh who knew not Joseph.

She voted Leave. My understanding was much of the DUP motivation for voting Leave was to undermine the GFA. The fact the GFA needed to be honoured and that brexit was a major threat to it was certainly known before the referendum.

She took a chance that the UK would not countenance breaking the union and would not abandon NI. She underestimated the duplicity of the tories but, ultimately, she voted leave at a time that, with any little bit of thought or research, it was obvious that either a UK-wide or NI only backstop was the only way to keep the Irish border open and to comply with the GFA.

She didn't get the unicorns she voted for. Neither did anyone else.

My understanding was much of the DUP motivation for voting Leave was to undermine the GFA.

Given events in the US, I'd be curious to know if that was based on fact, or mere emotion.

She didn't get the unicorns she voted for.

And absolutely no Leave voter can say that NI wasn't talked about because for me, protecting the GFA was the thing which clinched my Remain vote. I have said before that it was a huge achievement and it's criminal to carelessly endanger it in such a way.

@DGRossetti

My understanding was much of the DUP motivation for voting Leave was to undermine the GFA.

Given events in the US, I'd be curious to know if that was based on fact, or mere emotion.

Emotion. Facts don't come into it with them.

You just have to look at the handling of covid in NI. Despite pressure from other parties, no way would the DUP consider an all-island approach. It would have been the only sensible approach to take but the union with GB is way more important than anything else in their minds.

The irony is, the more they push to undermine the GFA or to reduce links with the republic, the closer a united Ireland is.

Gove's motivation also was to undermine the GFA.

Johnson - no, which option would be most likely to see him become PM.
Well, he got his wish, and Covid came along, Events, dear boy, events.

@Peregrina

She didn't get the unicorns she voted for.

And absolutely no Leave voter can say that NI wasn't talked about because for me, protecting the GFA was the thing which clinched my Remain vote. I have said before that it was a huge achievement and it's criminal to carelessly endanger it in such a way.

Yes. But most leave voters in GB didn't (and still don't) care about the GFA or NI.

I suspect any mention of NI or GFA was simply labeled as not important as it wouldn't affect them. So long as there are no bombs in their backyard, they don't care.