The Silence is Deafening

[Crankley]

For the last however long, I have read threads and posts by Remainers stating confidently that the Prime Minister wanted a No Deal, would get a No Deal. Here are just a few quotes. Some Remainers may recognise their own predictions:

'He is going to give us No Deal and then fuck off into the sunset with millons in bungs from his crooked mates,'

'I'm pretty certain on no deal...'

'I fully expect a No Deal Brexit.'

'Bojo will 'deliver' no deal and then F off into the sunset'

'Boris Johnson and your disingenuous divs - How dare you try and spin a NoDeal'

'He was elected to not get a deal and to make his supporters feel good about the fact the had stuck it to the man (or something).'

There are lots more if you want them.

Now he has obtained a deal, where are all the threads by remainers? Do any have the the guts to hold up their hand up and say 'I was wrong'?

@HappyWinter

Oops, wrong thread !

HappyWinter Might have misread this but are you saying your interesting "where do we go from here?" post was on the wrong thread? I was just about to write a reply to it. Which thread was it supposed to go on please? If i've got the wrong end of the stick just ignore me.

I thought the article in the link was interestingly relevant
Did you? Relevant to what? It didn't answer any of the questions I asked you, Clavinova.

The ECJ ruling stated that at the time the case was heard it was too soon to determine whether Brexit deprived UK citizens living in the EU of their rights, since Brexit had not yet happened in 2018.
It did not rule on the 15-yr limit - unsurprisingly, as that was not its remit, whatever posters on here may claim about the excessive reach of EU legislatures and powers.

Wheeling out Corbyn when no one else has mentioned him or gives a crap about him is not relevant.

And there is a difference between GE voting and a "once in a generation" referendum - remarks made after that referendum regarding whether Tory tax exiles might vote Tory in a GE were the 15yr limit to be revoked are not relevant to why Cameron reneged on his manifesto promise to remove that limit before that referendum took place. Nor does any of this demonstrate how the UK "asks" the EU for permission to implement promises and when and where that permission was refused by the EU, which was the claim made by the poster I was responding to.

Louise It was meant for Westministenders but is probably as relevant here. Where do you think we should go from here? I would like to be somewhere more in the middle politically with more consensus. I don't think all the division is working for majority, it only works for politicians. We only have so much division because there is so much inequality, and when there is scarcity (of resources, affordable housing, jobs, financial security) it tends to drive it. I think this is where some of the anti-immigration rhetoric is stemming from.

remarks made after that referendum regarding whether Tory tax exiles might vote Tory in a GE...

The Tory tax exiles remark was made in 1989.

Wheeling out Corbyn when no one else has mentioned him or gives a crap about him is not relevant.

Clearly Jeremy Corbyn is relevant - or are you blaming Keir Starmer for Labour's indecision and lack of leadership regarding Brexit?

why Cameron reneged on his manifesto promise to remove that limit before that referendum took place

Did Cameron specify a time limit? Perhaps he thought overseas electors were more likely to vote 'leave' in the referendum - Cameron was backing 'remain' after all. Or perhaps he just ran out of time.

@HappyWinter

Louise It was meant for Westministenders but is probably as relevant here. Where do you think we should go from here? I would like to be somewhere more in the middle politically with more consensus. I don't think all the division is working for majority, it only works for politicians. We only have so much division because there is so much inequality, and when there is scarcity (of resources, affordable housing, jobs, financial security) it tends to drive it. I think this is where some of the anti-immigration rhetoric is stemming from.

thank you for the reply. Ah I'd not realised it was intended for Westministenders, I do post on there sometimes too.

You were asking "how did we get here? where do we go from here?" type questions. I agree that when there is scarcity there is likely to be more division. Seeking more consensus is admirable, I agree on that to, to a point. What I'd really like to see is more accoutability and more understanding on the part of our representatives that they must deliver what the electorate tells them they want.

This is not a popular opinion among some on MN but I stick by it. If our representatives receive an instruction from the electorate they must carry it out, and we shouldn't be left waiting for 4 1/2 years for them to get round to it either. I think the number of our representatives who still don't get this is worryingly high, as I expect we shall see tomorrow.

As for how people who are demonstrably not "the common people" to use a very crude shorthand for folks like Farage and JRM manage to convince so many that they will serve their interests while others fail to, I think the answer is found in what I wrote above. If you've not been listened too and been condecended towards for decades and then someone comes along and says "you know, you've got a point there! I'm going to do what you're asking of me" then it is unsurprising those people receive support. That remains true even when those same people, when given administrative power, UKIP councillors for example, prove themselves next to useless in excerising it.

"you know, you've got a point there! I'm going to do what you're asking of me" then it is unsurprising those people receive support.

Question is though, are either Farage or Reed-Mogg going to deliver the goods? Farage failed seven times to get elected to Parliament and he lost the platform he had as an MEP.

I think it is beyond question that Nigel Farage has delivered, regardless of the elections he won or lost. Quite some achievement to be fair, and I can't stand the guy.

If our representatives receive an instruction from the electorate they must carry it out
Which has NEVER been part of UK parliamentary law in any way shape or form

Manifesto promises are not instructions
MPs are elected to represent not obey

and for the millionth time of saying
an advisory decision
is NOT an instruction

I think it is beyond question that Nigel Farage has delivered, regardless of the elections he won or lost. Quite some achievement to be fair, and I can't stand the guy.

I was thinking in terms of tangible benefits - decent secure work, good quality housing, proper education, well funded healthcare. Still over to you Brexiters now that you have taken us out of the EU. Show us how we didn't need any of it. That includes those Brexiters who rushed to get EU passports too - the least you should be doing is surrendering them.

Did anyone see this man on Sky News? Be interested in what the leavers think he and many other business owners should do to try and make a go of things with the new red tape for selling goods abroad.

twitter.com/Barcajim3/status/1343857957193326593

I don't feel any sense of gloating - I just wonder exactly what Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg and Co are going to do to help him with his business, now that they have helped to make it uncompetitive.

And it's no good blaming the EU - babbling in Latin and making jokes doesn't make Trade deals. Proper preparation would have helped.

Interesting report that Sally. It looks like the guy set up his business in the wrong place really doesn't it. The market for the Eels (I've learned something new here) appears mostly in the EU and, going by this, principally Spain? I wonder if the guy's business is about taking eels out of rivers, in which case it's subject to voluminous regs, see below, or "farming" them, I suspect its the former.

www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180313-why-baby-eels-are-one-of-spains-most-expensive-foods

I did read something that said there was a a big market in China but selling into it was illegal in the UK.

www.eelregulations.co.uk/pdf/demp.pdf

This is not a popular opinion among some on MN but I stick by it. If our representatives receive an instruction from the electorate they must carry it out, and we shouldn't be left waiting for 4 1/2 years for them to get round to it either. I think the number of our representatives who still don't get this is worryingly high, as I expect we shall see tomorrow.

I don't think they explained the repercussions of leaving the EU, together with many lies in the campaign (such as the £350m a week for the NHS) and the Russian involvement. There should have been another referendum explaining this, like there was in Switzerland. I understand why you feel like it should be actioned, after you voted for it though.

As for how people who are demonstrably not "the common people" to use a very crude shorthand for folks like Farage and JRM manage to convince so many that they will serve their interests while others fail to, I think the answer is found in what I wrote above. If you've not been listened too and been condecended towards for decades and then someone comes along and says "you know, you've got a point there! I'm going to do what you're asking of me" then it is unsurprising those people receive support. That remains true even when those same people, when given administrative power, UKIP councillors for example, prove themselves next to useless in excerising it.

I think that's it in a nutshell, often it is a protest vote, due to people feeling like they haven't been listened to. That's how they got into power. The only way to get around this is for more moderate politicians to listen to people and come up with better answers to their questions than the likes of Farage or Rees-Mogg. If we had a better funded (by a fairer tax system), more equal society, there wouldn't need to be a protest vote and the anti-immigrant rhetoric might subside. People would not feel like they were being left behind and they wouldn't vote accordingly.

Louise
Interesting report that Sally. It looks like the guy set up his business in the wrong place really doesn't it.
Que?
You catch the eels where the eels are .....
Not much point buying a trawler in Birmingham after all

[quote LouiseCollins28]Interesting report that Sally. It looks like the guy set up his business in the wrong place really doesn't it. The market for the Eels (I've learned something new here) appears mostly in the EU and, going by this, principally Spain? I wonder if the guy's business is about taking eels out of rivers, in which case it's subject to voluminous regs, see below, or "farming" them, I suspect its the former.

www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180313-why-baby-eels-are-one-of-spains-most-expensive-foods

I did read something that said there was a a big market in China but selling into it was illegal in the UK.

www.eelregulations.co.uk/pdf/demp.pdf[/quote]
Set up a business in the wrong place? He’s been exporting eels for 50 years! Has a £2 million turnover.

Similarly, mackerel and herring are heavily fished in the U.K. but there’s a minimal market for them here, the vast majority are exported.

Interesting response that HappyWinter thank you. That other politicans need to come up with better answers I agree with you on 100%.

I see two problems:

People want what they want so the "there wouldn't need to be a protest vote (if...)" arguement is on shaky ground IMO. Your last 2 sentences come over to me as changing the terms of debate to deliver what you want, not what those who'd likely vote for Nigel Farage want.

Our politicians do actually need to come up with better answers. Unfortnately they routinely do the same thing, providing "better answers" only from the points of view of those who already support them.

The eel company are featured in this article from November - I wonder if the appeal mentioned here was successful?

"The company has already faced a financial blow as the Joint Nature Conservation Committee (JNCC) has made the decision that fishing of Elver eels cannot continue in Welsh rivers as it could not be proven that enough elvers could escape the fishery to allow for a surplus to continue their population."

"However, the company is appealing the decision in a letter citing the impact on livelihoods of fisherman working in the sector, including research that contradicts the decision."

"Peter Wood, founder of the company writes in the letter:“ There are some 40 Welsh glass eel fishermen who will lose part of their livelihood, that supply us the sector with glass eels."

“The sector needs a minimum critical mass to be viable, this mass has been gradually eroded over the last ten years, further loss of fishermen will still have a significant impact on the sector.”

www.businessinnovationmag.co.uk/brexit-might-be-the-end-of-our-business-say-river-severn-eel-fishermen/

Tatiana I was just commenting on this very same thing on a different thread. Why are we not eating our herring and mackerel? Because we should be, notwithstanding that a good Kipper is (one of) the Food of the Gods.

UK culinary skills have improved so much we now know lots more tasty things to do with our Herrings and Mackerel besides Kippers.
So we should eat more of them and help cut Food Miles too.

Brits don’t like’ em. They prefer cod, salmon, tuna, prawns.

Agree with you there hate mmmmm kippers, and for that matter mmmmm mackrel

Tuck in@TheHateIsNotGood . It's so patriotic. Makes it even tastier.

Well who would have thought some years ago that people would enjoy raw fish i.e. sushi?

So never say never.

You were asking "how did we get here? where do we go from here?" type questions. I agree that when there is scarcity there is likely to be more division. Seeking more consensus is admirable, I agree on that to, to a point

I think if you want less division and more consensus, then leavers should perhaps do a little less "we won, get over it" and more acknowledgment that remainers have lost many rights that they very much valued... frictionless trade, FOM, Erasmus, being a european citizen and trying to end nationalism that brings europe nothing but trouble.
But in RL and on here, that rarely happens, however, though i disagree with much of what you say Louise, you tend to be far more constructive.

Remainers cannot be expected to support a project that they are totally at odds with, if in time Brexit is a storming success, then we'll hold our hands up and gladly admit we were wrong.

I love mackerel, it's one of my favourite fish and it's packed full of Omega 3 and other goodies. I'll eat it in any form and mackerel pate is to die for (but a lot of cream is added so that's a bit of a treat!)🐟🐟

Why are we not eating our herring and mackerel? Because we should be, notwithstanding that a good Kipper is (one of) the Food of the Gods

I love mackerel and herring, smoked 'kippers too

But for most people, they are oily fish with far too many bones, as picking out the flesh of shellfish, eating them as they squirm on your fork... forget it!