Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

Could I ask Leavers here what industry/role you are in?
Education. Interestingly my DH (who works as a retail buyer and imports stock from Europe) voted Remain and so did his colleagues. My BIL and SIL (builder and receptionist) voted Leave. I actually think there’s a big split between those whose job involves working with companies in other countries (Remain) and those with very UK centric jobs (Leave).

the most important question is what do we do NOW?
My suggestion would be to figure out why people voted Leave and attempt to address those issues. Because imo the reasons (some) people voted for Brexit had very little to do with leaving the EU, and leaving won’t actually address them.

I'd always assumed that buying local was ipso facto the 'enviromental' choice - and shopped accordingly - but then heard an edition of R4s 'You and Yours', devoted to the question, and based upon the academic research on the issue, which had found that that wasn't the case, at all. One example - inter alia - the programme gave was New Zealand lamb; New Zealand is so efficient at producing lamb (optimum climate for growing grass' less use of fertilisers, etc.), that even after transporting it half-way around the world, the CO2 produced was considerably less than home grown lamb.

Very interesting indeed Tanguero I admit. I definitely need to check in with that programme. What happens though if the aviation industry does not recover from C-19?

The problem here is that if in the event of a no-deal if UK lamb is priced out of the EU market (UK lamb competing with NZ lamb) our problem is what happens to our UK farmers and the land which they are producing from? Can they survive just selling to UK consumers?

I found out at the beginning of this month that this is now very much in the balance, after two decades of living in an EU country, so I know how you feel.
Sounds like we are in similar positions! Hope you manage to find a solution.

Meant to add ... and can UK consumers afford to buy lamb in a non-competitive national market?
(Happy to stand corrected on this as I have no special knowledge.)

You too Europilgrim

I feel like you're only going to get a reasoned debate/answer from remainers because we used our brains before we voted.

I'd say that's just you being rude as opposed to your statement being factual. A snipe at people who voted differently from you. We live in a democratic society, people are free to choose how they wish to vote. Yes, of course some of the brexiteers probably voted without any research, just through blind ignorance. As did some remainers probably. But some brexiteers voted the way they did due to what they think is the best thing for their country. They used their brains, did their research and voted for what the thought was best. I'm not saying they were right, but they aren't wrong or stupid just because you don't agree with them. None of us know how this is going to turn out.

And no, i didn't vote for brexit. Nor did I vote to remain actually, I was working abroad at the time and didn't actually vote. However I'm not really overly pro remain or leave. The vote has been cast so we just need to make the best of the situation and realise that some positives do come out of most situations.

the most important question is what do we do NOW?

Annabannana My suggestion would be to figure out why people voted Leave and attempt to address those issues. Because imo the reasons (some) people voted for Brexit had very little to do with leaving the EU, and leaving won’t actually address them.

Indeed. Totally agree. But in addition we now have a load of other issues to sort (that in my opinion the EU did try and resolve: environmental standards, product standards and trade regs in general) on top of trying to solve the issues that caused people to be disastifisfed and vote for Brexit in the first place.

And if Boris adopts a more right wing Singapore-on-Thames approach to the economy, won't people's dissatisfaction increase even more?

I was going to say that at least now the UK government will have to stand by its own decisions and not blame the EU for every difficulty and failure. But unfortunately Boris and Gove now have Covid-19 and attendant financial crisis on which to blame future mistakes.

Imo one of the fundamentals that led to this is deep rooted in UK education. For context: we moved here primarily because I think anglo-saxon education is better that eastern european. There were, of course, many other factors too.

Whilst I still believe this, with 10 years being involved in UK education I can see tremendous problems on a system level that are not even being mentioned. ever.

But that would still need to be second to the actual pragmatic and practical sorting out this shit.

Some points worth picking up on here:
Statement: Farage campaigned in 2016 on saying the streets would be safer for women to walk without marauding gangs of dangerous foreign men let in by Brexit. I guess that message hit home.
Comment: Some have been British men but the vast majority were raised in other countries where its normal to disrespect women.

Or indeed may have been British but from Commonwealth countries where this is still a prevalent attitude. How will leaving the EU address this?

Comment: After all they didn’t prevent Poland joining and that resulted in an influx of immigrants and negative social effects. My opinion was that the same would happen with Turkey.

The Tory party under Major encouraged this eastward expansion. As an EU member state the UK was able to push for this expansion. Under Blair’s New Labour they had the option allowed by the EU to restrict the influx of citizens from E Europe for a number of years. They did not take this option up. Germany did restrict them. So the blame here lies fairly and squarely with Westminster Governments.

Turkey had been trying and failing to join the EEC/EU for thirty five years or more, largely because of their human rights issues. It was common knowledge among people who followed developments of the EEC/EU. In any case we had a veto. So this was a piece of Farage mischief.

But I would add that Cameron's case for Remain was poor. He could hardly do otherwise - he could hardly tell the electorate that the austerity we had suffered was because it was their policy. Blaming the EU was a good excuse.

Under Blair’s New Labour they had the option allowed by the EU to restrict the influx of citizens from E Europe for a number of years. They did not take this option up.
Yes. And I couldn’t force them to take that option up. But I COULD put a stop to it by voting Leave. That vote was the only power I had.

Explain some of what. I'd like somebody to explain why we, a sovereign nation, should be ruled by a European parliament. A trade deal means trade. Not abiding by laws not made by our parliament.

@Viviennemary

Explain some of what. I'd like somebody to explain why we, a sovereign nation, should be ruled by a European parliament. A trade deal means trade. Not abiding by laws not made by our parliament.

Single Market access and trade deal are not equal. And in that lies the answer.

@amusedtodeath1

Ok, here goes.

When the vote came up I really did my homework.

Do we need the EU - no, not really.

Does being in the EU have advantages, yes

Does it have disadvantages, yes

Are the policies the EU are making in our best interests, often not.

Does the political process work - definitely not for every EU member.

Does the EU allowing new member states to join without meeting the financial criteria (we all agreed to when joining) put other member states in a vulnerable position - 100% yes.

Does free movement cause problems - 100% yes.

Is the EU willing to listen and mitigate the problems these policies are causing - Absolutely not.

The above is a very brief outline of some of the reasons I voted leave. I remember when we weren't one homogeneous Europe so going it alone is not as terrifying to me as to some people either.

I'm neither racist nor a moron, did I make the right choice? I can't say tbh, I always knew it would be a massive upheaval if we left but I'm still feeling like we will be better off long term for it. No one really knows do they? Sometimes you have to make the sacrifice for a better long term future.

The EU are currently arguing about how to distribute the vaccine fairly, with the richest countries demanding more than the poorer. The squabbling slows everything down so much. Besides we aren't part of the European continent and therefore have slightly different needs/issues and no allowance for that is allowed. It just doesn't work the way it was supposed to.

I don't hate anyone, I just want a better life for my daughter and the younger generation. Don't we all want that really? We just have different ideas about how we go about it.

I also did my homework and voted Leave for similar reasons.

I was also concerned for a very long time about the EUs financial wastefulness; huge salaries, vast pensions, the like of which most people can only dream of; huge expense accounts, corruption, etc. It is taxpayers' money that funds all this, yet we had absolutely NO control over it. Our national governments have had expenses scandals, but these have been investigated, funds repaid, sanctions applied. We have the ability to make our MPs account for themselves.

Add to that the inevitable 'ever closer union' with ultimate political union and you have a political behemoth which can only end up being, essentially, a totalitarianism. The recent warning from the EU to Poland and Hungary that they will suffer consequences if they use their veto against the requirement to uphold EU law with entitlement to the Coronavirus recovery package is, I think, an indication of what is to come. I know UK opted out of the ever closer union, but I wonder how long that position could continue.

Anyone who has been a manager or done a degree in management knows that bigger is not better, but it seems that the EU will not be satisfied with a loose federation of trading states, which was the original intention.

The original intention of setting up the EU was to make another European war less likely. I have always found this puzzling as the friction caused by the disagreements and the overbearing nature of the largest protagonists does the opposite, it seems to me.

I always thought that we will have a difficult time, probably for a decade, and Covid now adds to that, but in the long term I am sure severance from the EU is for the best.

Not only the above, but the EUs rules against state aid, which has resulted in British Steel, one of our last remaining heavy industries, being bought by China.

But I COULD put a stop to it by voting Leave.
And to hell with all the damage that would cause? All your posts seem to be saying you reacted to a situation but deliberately didn't look at the consequences of your vote.

A trade deal means trade. Not abiding by laws not made by our parliament.
Trade deals involve give and take though. No country is "sovreign" in that respect. You give something up to get something you want. That IS trade. Most countries are part of similar of arrangements. Why do you think the UK is so different?

nighthawk The EU should be kicking Poland and Hungary out altogether.

ViivienneMary if you want trade with no other mutual commitments, then you go for wto terms. Anything else above this requires mutual agreements as Barnier explains:
[[https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_20_340.
here]]

If we want to do a trade deal with the U S we would have to deal with the same issues, which is agreeing to accept other people's rules.

The European Parliament is part of a legislative mechanism btw. It's not correct to say we are ruled over by it.

Thesunisstillshining you make a good point about UK education I think. No one teaches in schools how European politics works, or in a way totally different to UK politics.

eg not or!

Thenighthawk the EU has its own anti-corruption measures and investigators who are indeed kept busy, the majority of cases involve misuse of funds at a national level. Agreed this needs to be improved but as you say the UK has had significant problems in this area also.

Hungary and Poland as you may know are the ones flirting with totalitarianism!

State aid, as has been said many times before ...the UK has never used its powers to grant state aid to the max. The outcome for British Steel was a political choice for the UK government. The UK unlike Germany, France, Italy, Spain does not pay out subsidies. This may or may not be the right political decision but it's not the fault of EU that the British government let the UK steel industry go to the Chinese...but wasn't it Indian companies who bought it first?

Actually more interesting on state aid is to speculate what the UK will do in the future ? There are still wto rules to respect on subsidies but the political question is whether the UK government will actually provide significant state aid to support industries in difficulties ....not including current measures due to Covid-19?

@Viviennemary

Explain some of what. I'd like somebody to explain why we, a sovereign nation, should be ruled by a European parliament. A trade deal means trade. Not abiding by laws not made by our parliament.

Membership of the single market requires rules for all parties. A trade deal when we’re outside the EU mean rules for all parties. A trade deal with the US means rules... You cannot have your cake and eat it, despite what Johnson promised you.

The link below (Barnier's speech to students) clearly explaining didn't post properly. Trying again here :ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_20_340