Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

I have heard Anna's reasoning mentioned by more people who I know IRL, so surely it has been one of the reasons. Other EU countries do have integration issues too, and terrorism associated to it too.
The EU does not encourage this immigration as far as I know, but if any migrants make it to the EU grounds, then yes they call for ways to house them.
I have never understood why so many want to come to UK risking their lives, instead of staying in France or other European countries? But I think this will not be prevented by Brexit.
I do not know if UK will exercise more deportations once out of the EU. In which case, we could see less attempts indeed.
But they could have raised that together with other EU countries whe in the EU, and call for a revision on immigration and deportation. If the goverment actually wanted to they could have done it, instead of just blaming the EU.
From last year, there is noone else to blame. They can no longer blame anything they do on someone else. And it will be even more definitive after the 31st this year. It will be all down to UK's goverment, finally!

I have never understood why so many want to come to UK risking their lives, instead of staying in France or other European countries?

The main reason is not because we are particularly generous (we aren't and in any case, most refugees do not know what awaits them benefits-wise) but family. It is very hard to live anywhere as a refugee so having a family member (even a very distant one) who may be able to help you is a big draw. And we shouldn't forget that we don't actually have a lot of refugees and asylum seekers! Most refugees flee to neighbouring countries - the number we see arriving in the UK is very small compared, for example to the numbers in Turkey or many other countries.

Farage campaigned in 2016 on saying the streets would be safer for women to walk without marauding gangs of dangerous foreign men let in by Brexit. I guess that message hit home.

Lurked. Been out. Popped back to see if someone would say something that I didn't already know and/or which was only resolvable by Brexit.
Nope.
Nothing.
As you were.

My mum voted leave because my late dad 'never thought the Common Market was a good idea'. I think there are probably a lot of people were like her and just didn't think it through. One friend voted to leave but said she wished there had been a box for 'don't know' because she would have ticked that. Another (less of a friend now) seems to have fully bought into the Britain First stuff and thinks we should look after our own, and if we stop letting people in we won't have to build so many houses. And something about our ridiculous health and safety nonsense all being the fault of the EU - but in the same conversation told me that they are much more sensible about health and safety in France and Germany. So I think she's confused. And very racist.

Doublebubblebubble
I feel like you're only going to get a reasoned debate/answer from remainers because we used our brains before we voted.

Not in the least bit goady
Perhaps you could use your brain to actually read the Op???

One friend voted to leave but said she wished there had been a box for 'don't know' because she would have ticked that.
I think that box was called "stay at home - if you don't know what you're voting for, it's probably better not to vote at all".

And something about our ridiculous health and safety nonsense all being the fault of the EU - but in the same conversation told me that they are much more sensible about health and safety in France and Germany.
Sounds like someone I know who voted Leave because he has a friend who sells a product in the EU and has to translate the instructions and warnings into different languages. He thought he could save money by only providing it in English. Except of course, if he wants to export, he will still have to translate it - although he said a no deal might sink his business anyway so I guess he solved the problem!

I voted Remain but I have spoken to quite a few working class people (tradesmen) and a few elderly locally who voted for Brexit. Some feel they have been undercut by Eastern European immigrants and now cannot charge enough to reflect their own skills to get a job so their quality of life has deteriorated and they feel local services (NHS, schools etc are too full and housing has become more expensive). Interestingly, most say things are now already better since the vote in 2016 as less people have come. In terms of policy, they are hoping that the working classes here will be paid a fair wage again in the future and housing costs won’t rise further etc and their taxes won’t go up. They hope the Tories will become the party of the hard working “working classes”, as long as you work, you will be better off. I don’t really understand it- they think Labour is far too liberal and soft etc. I don’t think the people I spoke to are racist in any way- they just feel worse off than their parents generation.

Spittingchestnuts There are loads of questions here, too many to be sensibly addressed in a single reply so I’m probably going to flit about a bit responding to different ones, but hopefully this will give one useful pro-Brexit POV.

Your point about “life being automatically better” is an interesting one. I am sure life will be “different” but I’m not sure at all about “automatically better”, and as stated I am pro-Leaving. People will differ wildly on what they consider to be “better or “worse” outcomes. What I’d consider “better” others will doubtless disagree with me about.

You wrote “We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?”

I don’t think its accurate to say we have rejected those rules and policies, simply because of leaving the EU, I do think it’s accurate to say that we could, though I honestly don’t think it will happen. All current EU standards have been transposed into UK law as I understand things.

My POV on this that we could chose to move away from those things. Inside the EU we’d have no choice really, outside the EU we have ‘more’ of a choice, but I seriously doubt the model will be ditched wholesale, has this happened anywhere in the West? People constantly seem to downplay or decry this point but I think it’s important, whatever they say, they will (to a larger extent than before anyway) be our laws.

“So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould?” That the most interesting question I think, so what might they be? This is going to depend partly on who we elect to govern. However, my fear is that the same people as now will win, and the same people as now will lose.

In some ways yes, I want lower taxes and less state intervention. I can expand on this at length if you like but won’t here. In the last 9 months we’ve seen more government intervention than has been seen for decades.

I think COVID has the potential to change the game, but I fear it won’t happen. Society as I would ideally wish it to be, is far from what we have now. I think the “low tax” economy point, certainly for individual PAYE taxpayers is for the birds frankly. I’m expecting to be paying for the COVID crisis for the rest of my working life, and probably the whole of the rest of my life. Business taxes you’d think could be lowered to make the UK more attractive to investors, but the primary beneficiaries will be business owners.

I can’t see the UK enjoying better relations with the US under President Biden than we do with them under President Trump, though some things, like environmental policies there will be less conflict. Obviously, Biden won’t be President for ever. US/UK cooperation could be enhanced though particularly if we are no longer discriminating against their products by applying tariffs.

I voted leave because of the increased talk of a European-wide security force (army and/or police), to which I am opposed. I didn't want to be a federal state in a European entity, but rather an individual nation, with the choice not to engage in combat if necessary.
FWIW I am not racist, and I think immigration is generally a good thing. I'm glad we were not in the euro too.
I also think that many people voted leave because they were being told to vote remain, and they took that as an affront, speaking to people I know.

I voted leave because of the increased talk of a European-wide security force Increased talk among Leave voters you mean? The idea that there wouldn't be "the choice not to engage in combat if necessary" was basically only put about by leavers - it had no basis in reality. Sorry, but I find it really sad that someone based their vote on rumours.

I also think that many people voted leave because they were being told to vote remain, and they took that as an affront, speaking to people I know.
And that is, if anything, even worse. I can't believe people were happy to scupper their own economy on such a flimsy basis.

Adults shouldn't take important national decisions just to piss someone off.

FUSOI, this is definitely the reasoning I recognise in my area of the North East. People were voting for change and so what if things didn't get better? They had nothing to lose.

Brexit to a lot of people was a protest vote. But London-centric media and politicians still don't listen; it's so much easier to call people stupid and racist. No one listened and that's the problem: they never have.

Finally a thread where people explain their reasoning. All I've heard before is 'I'm not going to say it again'. Thanks all.

@Whenwillow

Finally a thread where people explain their reasoning. All I've heard before is 'I'm not going to say it again'. Thanks all.

I was coming on to say something similar. Usually you get we've explained it already, google, look at past threads, i'm not saying it again etc. Although some of the reasons stated are questionable, it's refreshing to see posters actually engaging and explaining.

I'm grateful to the posters who have explained but at the same time it is enormously frustrating to hear that some of these arguments boil down to "I voted Leave because you told me not to". It really just underlines what a stupid idea it was to hold a referendum under those conditions!

Thank you everyone for such considered replies.

It turns out I have chosen a bad day to start a thread like this but I will try and work my way through the responses intermittently over the weekend in no particular order but if I don't get to yours, thank you for every one of them. It's good that Leavers and Remainers can at least have a calm "conversation" in these uncertain times.

LouiseCollins28 Point taken that "automatically better" will mean different things to different people.

I hear you re: the attractiveness of the idea of being able to "choose" to adopt EU legislation or not but the difficulties will surely arise in the future where the EU decides to "improve or strengthen" its rules and the UK decides it does not wish to follow. In this instance, UK producers, who wish to sell in to the EU market will still have to follow the EU rules, even though they do not need to do so when supplying the UK market.

So here there is a logic to the UK deciding to move fully away from EU rules, which it would have to do realistically, if it is to reach an agreement with the US on a UK-US free trade agreement (something the EU has never been able to do precisely because the US approach to product regulation is so different....).

So the difficulties for the UK in fact increase post-Brexit unless we take a very clear decision on where we want to go. Otherwise, we'll be forced to follow somebody else's rules in order to achieve the trade deals we feel we need. So the idea is that we able to choose on our own now, I would argue, is largely illusory.

Think of the chicken farmers in Thailand who supply the EU market. They have to meet very strict EU safety rules - that are compliance checked at every stage of the process - in order that we can all buy chicken from Thailand without any concern. But they do so because they can then supply the whole EU market. So now the UK is outside the EU, what do we want. EU standards? Or Thai standards? Because our market is not big enough to put in place special rules for the UK only.

Comments on low tax/low state intervention to follow after dinner prep!

Agree with your point about Covid-19 and ensuing economic crisis being incompatible with low taxes btw.

Nobleelephantthethird Members of my extended family who voted for Brexit have expressed similar concerns. The fact that the UK had the ability to limit immigration numbers under the EU's free movement directive and yet Blair and Brown failed to exercise these powers, mismanaged the entire situation, removed physical checks in 1998, underestimated the numbers etc etc, all falls on deaf ears.

@bellinisurge

Adults shouldn't take important national decisions just to piss someone off.

No they shouldn't...but they do! People make daft decisions all the time, tbh. A number of people at the time grumbled to me about people such as Obama telling them how to vote. It just irked them.

Why would I bother? Within the first few posts it's goady brexiteers are not capable of reasoned debate shite. You want non goady you need to be non goady. People voted, it didn't go your way, no amount of explanation will satisfy you because you've already decided people who voted brexit are horrible, racist, morons.

Farage campaigned in 2016 on saying the streets would be safer for women to walk without marauding gangs of dangerous foreign men let in by Brexit. I guess that message hit home.
Personally I’d have to say yes. I’ve had a number of experiences of misogyny, unprofessional behaviour, men refusing to be my subordinate employee or even shake my hand, creepy behaviour and threats to my personal safety. Some have been British men but the vast majority were raised in other countries where its normal to disrespect women.

People were voting for change and so what if things didn't get better? They had nothing to lose.
Yes I agree with this.

Some feel they have been undercut by Eastern European immigrants
Yes this is a common attitude among manual workers, particularly builders etc. They can’t compete with labourers who are here temporarily and willing to live cheaply and accept low pay because their money will be worth more when they go home.

You seem to think that we had no say when we were still members?
Of course we had a say. But I didn’t trust the government to prevent Turkey joining the EU. After all they didn’t prevent Poland joining and that resulted in an influx of immigrants and negative social effects. My opinion was that the same would happen with Turkey.

So you have no problem with more immigration from India (which is what they are asking for in exchange for the trade deals we need)?
I voted on the issue at hand, which in 2016 was Turkey and the migrant crisis. I don’t think it’s a good idea to import large numbers of men with misogynistic attitudes from any country.

@amusedtodeath1

Why would I bother? Within the first few posts it's goady brexiteers are not capable of reasoned debate shite. You want non goady you need to be non goady. People voted, it didn't go your way, no amount of explanation will satisfy you because you've already decided people who voted brexit are horrible, racist, morons.

You must have missed the 5th post and 3rd reply from the OP, which said the exact opposite.

I refuse to think all Leavers voted on racist grounds. That would be too depressing. And actually I don't think it's true.

@AnnnaBananna

What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against? In a nutshell: I voted for an equal society where women are safe and respected and attitudes are tolerant and accepting. I voted for not allowing any more people into the UK who are opposed to those ideals.

The fact that the UK had the ability to limit immigration numbers under the EU's free movement directive and yet Blair and Brown failed to exercise these powers
I think there was a large element of “If you won’t control immigration from the EU then I’ll force you to”. If immigration issues had been addressed I would have voted Remain. As it stood, the only route available for me to address immigration was to vote Leave.