Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

@amusedtodeath1
Could you go int more detail on what you took into consideration for each point or example?

Spittingchestnuts your point about the element of 'choice' in trade rules is an interesting one, is such choice an illusion? I agree that the UK market is clearly too small on its own to set trade rules and dictate terms to our trading partners, so it becomes a question of who's rules do we align to most closely?

In the end I expect we'll align closely to current EU rules, as mentioned before this has largely already happened. What happens in the future? Also, what happens to trade between 2 partners, say the USA and UK, or Canada and the UK where the products/services being exchanged don't go anywhere near the EU? There, I hope we will enjoy some more flexibility to determine those arragements between the contracting partners without reference to the EU.

On tax and state intervention. Generally I'm in favour of less of both (though the extent of the government intervention seen during Covid-19 has provided some security of employment for millions of people and I see the value of that). I'm actually quite comforted that the government could intervene in extremis to the extent they have, I was doubtful whether they could. I do think though that governments should be able to (and should) support critical industries to ensure their continued viability. This should be happening in post Brexit UK IMO.

On tax, generally in favour of less being levied against ordinary individuals. However I think that's gone now. Personal taxation I don't see coming down any time soon, i think the hole we'll have to fill is so massive.

You would also need to go back in time and ask Cameron what his vision of life after Brexit was. He dreamed up the referendum that made all this happen. A government doesn't normally offer a referendum on something that is fundamentally bad for the country. As Prime Minister, what were the positives that he and his party envisaged when they added a referendum on leaving the EU to their manifesto?

Yellowspanner

I am laughing at the idea that the remainers on here are non goady.
OP your opening post is goady.
I voted Leave because I think the ECJ has no place in the UK. We have excellent law makers and law enforcement. I trust our courts and judges.
I don't need another reason for my vote.
I don't intend to engage further, but I find the post upthread saying leave voters only want people who look like them extremely racist.
Are you assuming I am white? Are all leave voters white?

Yellowspanner I agree with you that there should be no presumption about the political or racial profile of Leave voters. Quite clearly, more than half of the country voted Leave.

The role of the ECJ has been demonised and I often wonder whether people realise that the ECJ can only act on issues which are purely EU ie the interpretation of European Law. So the ECJ will be important for all UK traders, manufacturers, travellers, etc, who continue to engage with the EU. Outside of this of course there will need to be other courts (or dispute settlement mechanisms) established to regulate all disputes arising from the Free Trade Agreements that the UK enters in to with Third countries.

Of course UK courts are effective and reliable but from what I can see, the ECJ and other international dispute bodies will continue to remain important in the UK's future economic life, whether we are in the EU or not.

Finally, my op certainly contains strong views and I make no apologies for them but I dispute the fact that it is "goady". As previously mentioned, I genuinely want to hear more about the UK's future as those who voted for Brexit see it (and how that will be shaped in legislation and policy) rather than what they voted against.

I would love to have an in depth discussion about why I made that choice back then. Truth is no one really knows what the best option is but life clearly could be better for a lot of people. The reason I don't and haven't discussed it until now is because I'm so tired of leave voters being constantly vilified and already there are goady people blaming me for ruining their and their children's lives. It's nice that people are happy with their lives that they don't want change but there are a lot of people who feel they had nothing worth losing and everything to gain by this. This is the point, things are so bad for so many they NEED change.

Anyway I have nicer, happier, more positive things I could be doing than having to justify myself and being treated like I'm a fucking monster so I'll now out gracefully now.

This is the point, things are so bad for so many they NEED change.
Plenty of very rich people voted for Leave too.

Whenwillow
Finally a thread where people explain their reasoning. All I've heard before is 'I'm not going to say it again'. Thanks all.

AaronPurr
I was coming on to say something similar. Usually you get we've explained it already, google, look at past threads, i'm not saying it again etc. Although some of the reasons stated are questionable, it's refreshing to see posters actually engaging and explaining.

I'm glad that Leavers have had an opportunity to explain themselves on here without (in the main) being accused of racism, stupidity or ignorance. I very much hope the thread can continue in a measured way.

Just to be clear, this is mainly about the UK's choices for the future. I am still unclear what direction the UK wants to go in. We know the direction we don't want to go in, but that's not nearly enough at this late stage?

The UK have some extremely difficult choices to make from 1st January onwards, which I suppose is what the country voted for. And both Leavers and Remainers need to be able to set aside rancour to discuss important issues discussed here that won't have magically disappeared overnight between Dec 31st and Jan 1st, in order to be able to forge a credible route ahead. What is the alternative?

Let's see what Boris presents as the plan for supplies, growth, and social and work rights.
I hope for no zero contracts anymore for starters.
And some trading deals out of the EU. They do not talk much about those either.
It is almost like a blank space.

I just wanted to say thanks OP for trying to have a measured debate here, it is important and we do need to talk about moving forward. Trouble is a lot of people aren't moving forward, I've never seen people be so angry about a political decision. People disagree of course but it's really not worth the level of vitriol I see here day after day. It makes the whole conversation miserable, it upsets me and I'm more than the sum of one vote I cast years ago.

Exactly, we all have to push together to build a future. No go over and over about it, it is in the past.

We need to press Boris and company for answers.

Basically, there are two opinions on this. The Remainers' opinion, or the wrong one.

amusedtodeath1
It's nice that people are happy with their lives that they don't want change but there are a lot of people who feel they had nothing worth losing and everything to gain by this. This is the point, things are so bad for so many they NEED change.

I hear what you are saying loud and clear. And clearly, the majority agree/agreed with you.

There is too much economic disparity within the UK. And there is a need for profound change.

I'm sorry - no one should be made to feel like a monster for wanting what everyone wants - a better future for their dc.

We obviously profoundly disagree about the direction that needs to be taken in order to enact necessary change..... but from 1st January onwards, both leavers and remainers, will be forced to make those concrete and detailed choices.

There is a democratic deficit - that is part of how the EU works. One family member voted leave for that reason alone.

It's nice that people are happy with their lives that they don't want change but there are a lot of people who feel they had nothing worth losing and everything to gain by this
It boils down to the fact that many people felt the current situation was unacceptable and the future looked worrying. So they used the only tool available to them to effect change: They voted Leave.

It is very hard to move on (and I am trying!) when you are already paying a high personal cost for Brexit and people post things like "it might turn out ok" (it isn't for me - that's not hypothetical) or "I voted for leave because I didn't like being told to vote Remain". I think some people forget that for a lot of us the downsides to Brexit are NOT hypothetical and we are already experiencing them so to be told especially that "nobody knows how it's going to pan out" is infuriating.

And clearly, the majority agree/agreed with you.
No. 17m people decided the fate of 67m. There is a hge difference in half the country voting for something and half the voters.
at this point though it is irrelevant. Just bugs me when I see half the country/majority wanted to leave.

FUSOI sorry didn't intend to ignore your long and impassioned post.

Agree with huge chunks of what you say; especially:

"So when people ask how you can inflict what they believe is wrong on the country ask why they have inflicted harm on the same parts of the country."

How does the UK move forward from what I agree is a catastrophic chain of events, with an untrustworthy administration?

Could I ask Leavers here what industry/role you are in?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly ?

I'd always assumed that buying local was ipso facto the 'enviromental' choice - and shopped accordingly - but then heard an edition of R4s 'You and Yours', devoted to the question, and based upon the academic research on the issue, which had found that that wasn't the case, at all. One example - inter alia - the programme gave was New Zealand lamb; New Zealand is so efficient at producing lamb (optimum climate for growing grass' less use of fertilisers, etc.), that even after transporting it half-way around the world, the CO2 produced was considerably less than home grown lamb.

I mean 'wasn't NECESSARILLY the case'.

Could I ask Leavers here what industry/role you are in?

Retired University lecturer in European Politics.

necessarily

@tanguero

Could I ask Leavers here what industry/role you are in?

Retired University lecturer in European Politics.

That is indeed a good profession to have regarding this! So what do you think it will happen from now onwards?

It is very hard to move on (and I am trying!) when you are already paying a high personal cost for Brexit and people post things like "it might turn out ok" (it isn't for me - that's not hypothetical) or "I voted for leave because I didn't like being told to vote Remain". I think some people forget that for a lot of us the downsides to Brexit are NOT hypothetical and we are already experiencing them so to be told especially that "nobody knows how it's going to pan out" is infuriating.

I am sorry for the current difficult situation you find yourself in Europilgrim. I am facing similar potential high personal costs. I always thought my legal status would be personally unaffected by Brexit but I found out at the beginning of this month that this is now very much in the balance, after two decades of living in an EU country, so I know how you feel. The uncertainty is incredibly stressful. I feel physically sick at the thought of a no-deal announcement tomorrow tbh.

I also feel very anxious for my family back home and for the UK (which I love) as a whole. (I moved away because I fell in love not because I disliked the UK!)

Having said all of that, as you agree, we do need to move on. Its very difficult but however we got here, the most important question is what do we do NOW?

In reality, leaving the EU is absolutely nothing in comparison to the energy and work and discussion needed to decide what the UK is actually going to do in the future? And if we don't have these discussions and clear routes forward, they will be imposed on us by other countries, not just the EU either.

We should all be involved in this discussion.