Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

@amusedtodeath1

Why would I bother? Within the first few posts it's goady brexiteers are not capable of reasoned debate shite. You want non goady you need to be non goady. People voted, it didn't go your way, no amount of explanation will satisfy you because you've already decided people who voted brexit are horrible, racist, morons.

You've not bothered to read the thread then? Just jumped straight in without thinking, displaying an over-developed sense of victimhood?

How jolly ironic.

A good friend of mine voted leave for 2 reasons that I could 'get' and appreciate as a view:

1. One level less of politicians... No MEP etc and their big payouts when voted out.. (simple as that)

2)the desire that we took in the right people for the right reasons.... They didn't feel Europeans should be given priority over others. They wanted an equal playing field with all other nations no matter where from or religious beliefs if we needed their skills etc. And true refugees. Her parents had been refugees.

I didn't really get her concern about European wide military force... But it wasn't something I know lots about.

She was also worried about food standards from a discussed US agreement at the time... Which she is was fuming about considering we are likely to end up with that...
I've not spoken to her recently about how she now feels... Covid restrictions has sort of taken over...

I voted on the issue at hand, which in 2016 was Turkey and the migrant crisis.
In 2016 the "Turkey problem" was largely Leave propaganda though whereas the fact that leaving the EU would open up immigration outside of the EU was discussed even in mainstream media. I still don't see why you would base an important vote on rumours rather than facts.

@AnnnaBananna

Farage campaigned in 2016 on saying the streets would be safer for women to walk without marauding gangs of dangerous foreign men let in by Brexit. I guess that message hit home. Personally I’d have to say yes. I’ve had a number of experiences of misogyny, unprofessional behaviour, men refusing to be my subordinate employee or even shake my hand, creepy behaviour and threats to my personal safety. Some have been British men but the vast majority were raised in other countries where its normal to disrespect women.

People were voting for change and so what if things didn't get better? They had nothing to lose.
Yes I agree with this.

Some feel they have been undercut by Eastern European immigrants
Yes this is a common attitude among manual workers, particularly builders etc. They can’t compete with labourers who are here temporarily and willing to live cheaply and accept low pay because their money will be worth more when they go home.

You seem to think that we had no say when we were still members?
Of course we had a say. But I didn’t trust the government to prevent Turkey joining the EU. After all they didn’t prevent Poland joining and that resulted in an influx of immigrants and negative social effects. My opinion was that the same would happen with Turkey.

So you have no problem with more immigration from India (which is what they are asking for in exchange for the trade deals we need)?
I voted on the issue at hand, which in 2016 was Turkey and the migrant crisis. I don’t think it’s a good idea to import large numbers of men with misogynistic attitudes from any country.

1. what nationalities were they? I'm really curious as my experience is different.

I work with 98% men usually (software dev) and the only people who were not willing to follow my lead when they would have had to, in this country, were some arabs and Indian. Every other nation's men managed to work with me. The very few arabs made the point so strongly that they had to be removed from the project/company. It was their choice. The Indians were more subtle but way more corrosive and damaging.

1. Some feel they have been undercut by Eastern European immigrants

Wouldn't the solution be a higher minimal wage and no 0-hour contracts?

1. But I didn’t trust the government to prevent Turkey joining the EU

But you trust them otherwise? On the Polish - I disagree, but get your point. Again: it could have been dealt with without brexit.

1. I voted on the issue at hand,

Actually this is my problem. That people are not inclined -and this is true on so many fronts, every day- to think one step further.

Why do you think women are not safe and respected in the EU?
Women are safe in the EU. But not safe in Turkey, and at the time of the vote Turkey was supposedly going to join the EU. And not safe among the economic migrants in Calais, whom the EU had permitted to approach our border and were pushing us to let them in.

Do you think ( or did you) that after Brexit there won't be more immigrants from even more culturally different places? At least EU immigrants in general share the same history/culture.
I have no problem with immigrants from current EU countries, or indeed any immigrants who are willing to share our culture and participate in our society. But I object to economic migrants and Turkey because of cultural differences that put British women at risk.

I voted leave because of the increased talk of a European-wide security force (army and/or police), to which I am opposed. I didn't want to be a federal state in a European entity, but rather an individual nation, with the choice not to engage in combat if necessary

I agree with you that the ability to decide unilaterally whether we go to war or not is critical. But as it stands, defence remains a competence exclusively reserved for individual Member States. As the BBC says “the deployment of troops remains the ultimate sovereign decision of a national government”.

I admit to not being very well informed in this area but , it is argued that there are excellent budgetary reasons for defence cooperation within the EU to eliminate duplication and over-capacity in some areas, and under-resourcing in others. And it has to be said that current threats to security in the modern world are rarely targeted at one isolated country. It surely makes sense to pool resources and cooperate with regard to intelligence, know-how and specialist skills. Especially with decreasing funding for NATO from the US?

Speaking of Nato, what do you feel about the NATO provision that says we agree to defend any NATO member that is attacked? This is nothing to do with the EU of course but is a policy leftover from the Cold War when the attack would presumably come from Russia. (Today of course things are a hell of a lot more complicated.)

@AnnnaBananna

Why do you think women are not safe and respected in the EU? Women are safe in the EU. But not safe in Turkey, and at the time of the vote Turkey was supposedly going to join the EU. And not safe among the economic migrants in Calais, whom the EU had permitted to approach our border and were pushing us to let them in.

Do you think ( or did you) that after Brexit there won't be more immigrants from even more culturally different places? At least EU immigrants in general share the same history/culture.
I have no problem with immigrants from current EU countries, or indeed any immigrants who are willing to share our culture and participate in our society. But I object to economic migrants and Turkey because of cultural differences that put British women at risk.

But at this point you will end up with more eg. Indian immigrants. They are even worse than Turkish men if we only take this one aspect.

Turkey was supposedly going to join the EU.
According to who? Nigel Farage?

In 2016 the "Turkey problem" was largely Leave propaganda
Perhaps then the question is why was propaganda permitted to be disseminated as fact? Many people believed that Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU and that affected the vote.

I am laughing at the idea that the remainers on here are non goady.
OP your opening post is goady.
I voted Leave because I think the ECJ has no place in the UK. We have excellent law makers and law enforcement. I trust our courts and judges.
I don't need another reason for my vote.
I don't intend to engage further, but I find the post upthread saying leave voters only want people who look like them extremely racist.
Are you assuming I am white? Are all leave voters white?

it is argued that there are excellent budgetary reasons for defence cooperation within the EU to eliminate duplication and over-capacity in some areas, and under-resourcing in others.
This is what the "Euro Army" is about - pooling resources and helping each other. We live in a world of superpowers with access to huge military forces and all EU countries are relatively small. It was never about sending British citizens off to war - as anyone who actually read about it rather than just reading scaremongering tweets from the Leave campaigners would have realised.

Wouldn't the solution be a higher minimal wage and no 0-hour contracts?
Of course. But the government failed to implement that. The only route available to people who wanted to stop Eastern Europeans undercutting British workers was to vote Leave.

@AnnnaBananna

In 2016 the "Turkey problem" was largely Leave propaganda Perhaps then the question is why was propaganda permitted to be disseminated as fact? Many people believed that Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU and that affected the vote.

As much as you have a point that I agree with I'd also like to ask why are you excusing individual responsibility of thinking, looking up very basic facts? The bottom line: we have been mislead only shows the level of intelligence of the people who have been mislead. Trying to shift blame to media outlets will not exempt people from being misinformed on purpose because they didn't bother to google for 5 minutes.

But I didn’t trust the government to prevent Turkey joining the EU
But you trust them otherwise?
Nope. But at least now they have to do something. Before they were doing nothing.

Perhaps then the question is why was propaganda permitted to be disseminated as fact?
I agree. And we have suffered the consequences but that doesn't let individuals off the hook imo. Too many people were quite content to follow the rhetoric without looking further than FB for their information.

But at this point you will end up with more eg. Indian immigrants
I figured any change was better than the current situation. It might turn out better and it might not, but at least it forced the government to do something.

@AnnnaBananna

Wouldn't the solution be a higher minimal wage and no 0-hour contracts? Of course. But the government failed to implement that. The only route available to people who wanted to stop Eastern Europeans undercutting British workers was to vote Leave.

But if EE workers are not allowed then there will be commonwealth, african, etc workers coming in that are just as much in need. Or let's say they don't come. Even then: will that have the desired effect of actual higher wages? No, because that is a purely UK gov decision to make min. wages higher. Has nothing to do with the EU.

I figured any change was better than the current situation. It might turn out better and it might not, but at least it forced the government to do something.
So you figured, putting everyone at a disadvantage would force the government to do something and you thought this would work out for the best?

@AnnnaBananna

But I didn’t trust the government to prevent Turkey joining the EU But you trust them otherwise? Nope. But at least now they have to do something. Before they were doing nothing.

No it didn't. Thus we are 19 days away from a life changing event that we have no idea how will be handled. The gov doesn't show signs that they have a plan for

• tariffs (on what/how much)
• logistics
• immigration
• education (eg Erasmus)

etc...

So you figured, putting everyone at a disadvantage would force the government to do something and you thought this would work out for the best?
Well I figured it couldn’t be any worse. It would either be better, or equally bad (in which case we were no worse off). At least change offered a chance for improvement.

One quick point about economic migrants etc in response to AnnaBannana's posts and others ....

I think the problem is that leaving the EU will not necessarily change very much with regard to the UK's management of economic migrants.

There will still be issues within the EU about the wholly disproportionate impact of economic migrants from outside the EU eg Somalia, Armenia, Eritrea, Afghanistan etc on southern EU member states eg Greece, Italy and Spain. And this will still have a direct impact on the UK, whether we are in or out of the EU.

Of course it may be that if UK suffers significant economic recession, that some migrants will prefer to head for more prosperous EU member states eg Germany. But think of Covid-19 which didn't stop migrants still trying to come to the UK.

Of course after 1st Jan, the UK no longer has to offer Free Movement to EU nationals (these are not economic migrants but EU workers eg Polish builder, Romanian agricultural worker) and so in this respect the position will change. But the problem is that the UK still needs many of these workers to fill so many essential roles.

So now the question is post-Brexit, for everyone who voted Leave, should these jobs be filled by Europeans or by people from any country around the world eg India, China, Kenya. What is the UK's direction going to be?

Well I figured it couldn’t be any worse. It would either be better, or equally bad (in which case we were no worse off). At least change offered a chance for improvement.

Why didn't you think it would be any worse? I understand thinking things might be better, but surely you must have also considered the opposite would also be a posibility?

Well I figured it couldn’t be any worse. It would either be better, or equally bad (in which case we were no worse off). At least change offered a chance for improvement.

How could taking away future generations right to study and work freely in any EU country be no worse or better? And that is just one aspect....

Ok, here goes.

When the vote came up I really did my homework.

Do we need the EU - no, not really.

Does being in the EU have advantages, yes

Does it have disadvantages, yes

Are the policies the EU are making in our best interests, often not.

Does the political process work - definitely not for every EU member.

Does the EU allowing new member states to join without meeting the financial criteria (we all agreed to when joining) put other member states in a vulnerable position - 100% yes.

Does free movement cause problems - 100% yes.

Is the EU willing to listen and mitigate the problems these policies are causing - Absolutely not.

The above is a very brief outline of some of the reasons I voted leave. I remember when we weren't one homogeneous Europe so going it alone is not as terrifying to me as to some people either.

I'm neither racist nor a moron, did I make the right choice? I can't say tbh, I always knew it would be a massive upheaval if we left but I'm still feeling like we will be better off long term for it. No one really knows do they? Sometimes you have to make the sacrifice for a better long term future.

The EU are currently arguing about how to distribute the vaccine fairly, with the richest countries demanding more than the poorer. The squabbling slows everything down so much. Besides we aren't part of the European continent and therefore have slightly different needs/issues and no allowance for that is allowed. It just doesn't work the way it was supposed to.

I don't hate anyone, I just want a better life for my daughter and the younger generation. Don't we all want that really? We just have different ideas about how we go about it.

"I don't hate anyone, I just want a better life for my daughter and the younger generation. Don't we all want that really? We just have different ideas about how we go about it."

I also want a better life for my daughter. Which is why I have made her an Irish citizen and got all of us here Irish passports. So we don't lose the rights you think we shouldn't have .