Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

@AnnnaBananna

Under Blair’s New Labour they had the option allowed by the EU to restrict the influx of citizens from E Europe for a number of years. They did not take this option up. Yes. And I couldn’t force them to take that option up. But I COULD put a stop to it by voting Leave. That vote was the only power I had.

This is a bit like setting fire to your house to stop burglars from breaking in.

It is rather worrying the number of posters on this thread who are blaming the EU for decisions made by the UK government- and then saying how pleased they are that our government will now be able to make all the decisions.

Europilgrim - that's a good observation, but the problem has been the disconnect. Cameron's Government and onwards have blamed the EU for their own failings, backed up by the MSM so people haven't realised this.

@Europilgrim

But I COULD put a stop to it by voting Leave. And to hell with all the damage that would cause? All your posts seem to be saying you reacted to a situation but deliberately didn't look at the consequences of your vote.

You see thats just a stuff you for what you believe is "screwing up your nice life". You have no desire to or I doubt ever accept that millions of people aren't having a good life and why should they vote to secure yours. You certainly wouldn't if it was the other way around. We are and have been very much a divided country, we are where we are because of Policies some European, mostly national. The politicians alsways have twisted what they meant at ever general election and every party. This was a very black & white vote Leave or Stay nowhere to hide although far too many have tried their best for 3 years. AS for the argument that only 17 Million people voted, that more than do at teh general elections for the winner and that has much greater effec on teh country and is responsible for the carp we are in now.

Thanks for your observations, @FUSOI. This one especially struck home:

The economy is based on House Prices and Debt, the politicians only interest is power so still throwing free money at people.

@Europilgrim

It is rather worrying the number of posters on this thread who are blaming the EU for decisions made by the UK government- and then saying how pleased they are that our government will now be able to make all the decisions.

The reality is you are never going to accept it and continue to blame "stupid people" for upsetting you. Yes its national decision, but housing, health, jobs, contracts, pay etc. are all effected by population numbers with seemingly no end in sight. You obviously have none of these issues but seem unwilling to accept millions of famalies have. These also worry about the future and have equally legitimate for it as you do. Are these any less valid to yours.

The thing is that the shock of the Leave vote very quickly changed to the blame game. I have seen very few people that voted remain genuinely interested in tackling the issues that led to the vote. In the 4 years since nothing has been done.
AS for the government avoiding the blame for a lot of people that is not true. For the vast majority of our time in Europe we have had the same Politics whether Tory, New Tory or Liberal Undemocrat. Even Johnson got the Tory Job promising more of the same with further tax cuts even though the country was over £Half a Billion in debt.

So if you vote for change and get none what do you think was going to happen with the Brexit Vote. The people that were supposed to represent you were telling you to go away not interested because they were going to do what they wanted not what was voted on. The only surprise about the GE result is that the Tories only got a 80 seat majority. That was only because a lot of traditional voters wouldn't vote Tory if you look at the swing seats you will see a large decrease in Turn Out for that reason.
Like the rest of the issues, jobs, contracts housing etc. it doesn't effect you so you don't care. Like everything else people only take notice when it has an impact on them personally.
A lot of people who voted remain are in denial about the state of the country, its division and misery of a substantial number of people. And they still don't give a stuff.

Covid & Brexit will take the blame for the economy but the reality is there have been very serious issues for many years being covered up by "free money" and debt. That will do a great deal more damage to your childrens future than Brexit will.
Thatcher the Tax Dodger wanted a service based economy - you got it.
Phony Tony Tory Blair, wanted to finish her work and a staunch supporter of globilisation - he got that aswell.
The very rich people that voted Brexit voted for polar opposite reasons to protect themselves and inflict more misery.

Its done deal with it, but don't think your previous votes and choices didn't help make it happen, because thats exactly why it happened.

Add to that the inevitable 'ever closer union' with ultimate political union and you have a political behemoth which can only end up being, essentially, a totalitarianism. The recent warning from the EU to Poland and Hungary that they will suffer consequences if they use their veto against the requirement to uphold EU law with entitlement to the Coronavirus recovery package is, I think, an indication of what is to come. I know UK opted out of the ever closer union, but I wonder how long that position could continue.

You really don't understand.
HU and PL are net beneficiaries of the EU. Both use EU funding to line their own packets. In HU there is a gas repair man who in 9 years accumulated a wealth of $1.3 BILLION. He cannot put a sentence together correctly he is genuinely that stupid. But he is a stand in for Orban. Orban's family (kids and parents) have accumulated billions in less than 10 years.
Most of this money comes from the EU. There are dirt roads instead of highways, hospital modernization where in fact they painted the literally falling pieces of the wall.....etc.
Less and less money is being spent as a facade and there will be a point where the EU is going to clamp down.

The EU is sanctioning them both for these. Not because the EU is becoming a totalitarian regime. In fact both HU and PL ARE totalitarian regimes with a very thin veil of democracy not really hiding their fascist agenda and outlook on life.

The fact that they have not been kicked out yet is purely political and wrong. They should have been stopped before getting bolder and bolder.

In HU votes have been bought for a long time. In the past 15 years the most common and widely known way to do this is to give a sack of potatoes to the roma and rural (extremely low education) people. For a sack of potatoes (10kg) they voted for Orban (Fidesz). The other is non hungarian resident, but hungarian heritage ppl being able to vote. All you have to do is declare (not prove) that you are hungarian and you get a vote. These are ppl mostly from Ukraine and transylvania, from extreme poverty. To them a sack of potatoes is huge! They either can cast a ballot through mail or are being transported by gov "charities" to the polling stations near the borders.
Yesterday's news: everyone in the foreign affairs ministry -think white collar, capital city dwelling people- received their xmas bonus: a sack of potatoes and 5 kg of apples. Not money. And you think the EU is totalitarian? oh come on......

You obviously have none of these issues but seem unwilling to accept millions of famalies have
You're wrong. But I, like millions of others, saw that Brexit would make these issues worse, not better. I get that people were making a protest but you don't make a protest by cutting your own nose off. And you don't get to look down at others who took the time to research what the vote actually meant just because you think you are standing up for poor! As pointed out earlier plenty of leave voters are very well off and plenty of Remainers aren't. It's convenient to pretend that Leave voters were protesting against years of deprivation, it's not actually true though. For a start, if you were really worried about immigration a Leave vote is particularly bad as we will now have to negotiate trade deals - in return for increased immigration. This was discussed before the referendum which rather negates your point doesn't it?

The reality is you are never going to accept it and continue to blame "stupid people" for upsetting you.
And putting stupid in quotation marks suggests that I said that. I didn't. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.

The reality is you are never going to accept it and continue to blame "stupid people" for upsetting you.
And putting stupid in quotation marks suggests that I said that. I didn't. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.

Everyone so far on this thread is really trying hard to stay civilized in the face of ppl trying to rationalize decisions based on obvious misinformation. Let's not go down the route of "you're stupid - no, you are...." there are plenty of threads like that to vent on.

@Europilgrim this was not aimed at you

I voted Leave but regretted it quite quickly as I saw the way our govt was handling things (I don't vote Tory btw, I'm a Labour voter). I became horrified by it and also realised that I was quite ignorant on many matters, even though at the time I'd tried to learn as much as I could. I never followed politics too much before, but that has changed markedly!

I've no faith in Boris nor his govt, if anyone can mess up negotiations, it's them. I had hoped we'd have more money for the NHS (but that was a lie). I was a very naive Leave voter.

I now believe Brexit was a terrible idea and the UK will largely regret leaving. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it feels right now. It will probably result in Scotland breaking away from the rest of the UK, and having awful consequences on the N Ireland situation.

So yes, I don't blame the EU for the outcome, after all it's the UK who initiated this and then passed that dreadful internal market bill.

I guess we'll see what pans out, I hope not as bad as it feels right now.

HU and PL are net beneficiaries of the EU. Both use EU funding to line their own packets. In HU there is a gas repair man who in 9 years accumulated a wealth of $1.3 BILLION. He cannot put a sentence together correctly he is genuinely that stupid. But he is a stand in for Orban. Orban's family (kids and parents) have accumulated billions in less than 10 years.
Most of this money comes from the EU. There are dirt roads instead of highways, hospital modernization where in fact they painted the literally falling pieces of the wall.....etc.

That is one of my points - the EU is hugely wasteful.

I fully realise that PL and HU are edging toweards totalitarian regimes, but that does not invalidate my point about totalitarianism in the EU.

And for those who really think that the EU have been negotiating in good faith, I point them towards the BBC's 'fly on the wall' documentary of May 2019 and in particular Guy Verhofstadt's remark, in the context of two of the team laughing with scorn at the UK '...we finally turned them into a colony, and that was our plan from the first moment'

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-antics-of-eurocrats-makes-brexit-more-vital-than-ever-5wq3lrlp5

uk.news.yahoo.com/documentary-shows-eu-brexit-negotiators-joking-we-always-wanted-to-make-them-into-a-colony-100541082.html

brexitcentral.com/the-bbcs-latest-brexit-documentary-shows-the-contempt-in-which-the-eu-negotiators-hold-us/

I truly think we are better for a clean break with these scum.

@Europilgrim

The reality is you are never going to accept it and continue to blame "stupid people" for upsetting you. And putting stupid in quotation marks suggests that I said that. I didn't. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.

The stpid was general not personal.

The reality is you are never going to accept it, you are going to carry on rationalising why everyone who voted Brexit is wrong for seemingly screwing up your life and they should of been content with their lot and voted remain.

To also then suggest years of deprivation and the other issues had nothing to do with the vote in the Red Wall is priceless. Good luck with that one.

TheSunIsStillShining I hope it wasn't aimed at me.

@PoorMansPaulaRadcliffe I also have heard similar things said about Australia/New Zealand and the relationship we have with them.

OP, someone said on Twitter today that we are still not getting it. They said remainers tended to vote based on informed facts, but leavers voted based on emotions - so 'sovereignty' (setting our own laws, conducting our own trade policy etc) really mattered to them, in a way that I have to say it doesn't to me. I'd much rather have freedom of movement. After all, with a Tory government in power my vote doesn't have much influence on what happens in this country (except at a local level). But I think to the Ukippers who now make up much of the modern Tory Party, it really does.

I've no faith in Boris nor his govt, if anyone can mess up negotiations, it's them.

I was just about to post something similar.

Look how Covid has been handled - people in the NHS working their socks off to deal with it, scientists busting a gut to get a vaccine developed.

Contrast this with Boris Johnson and Co giving PPE contracts to their mates, not people who can actually supply them. A failing Track and Trace put in the hands of Dido Harding, Johnson having to be shamed by a young footballer into providing free meals for hungry children.

@fusoi
let's say I'm just reminding everyone that this is the one brexit thread that has not devolved into anger and venting rants. :)

They have agreed to keep talking. At least that is the headline in The Guardian.
I do feel for businesses that have to send things in and out of UK.
Also for individuals, but at least we can plan to avoid doing things on January.

UK goverment will have plenty to face next year, but I do not have much faith that they will address issues properly. Boris does like big statements, with not so many actions to follow. Or projects that do not fully deliver, but he does not recognise it.

I have seen very few people that voted remain genuinely interested in tackling the issues that led to the vote. In the 4 years since nothing has been done.

I agree, for me Remain has largely felt and continues to feel just as much appearance over substance as much of the Leave campaign was. I've been told by Remainers that I shouldn't find how terrible the Remain campaign was run an issue to complain about because it was the status quo so they didn't need to do anything -- as if incumbents aren't expected to put out information on how they're going to deal with issues. Too many of them didn't want to dig into why many people don't like the EU or felt this was their only option to force the UK's hand to do something then beyond back then and even fewer want to do it now - it's all you wanted Brexit (or didn't vote), now you get it, I have no sympathy rhetoric which, great, fine, I don't expect many thought there was much sympathy for our areas before this.

All institutions have problems and corruptions, but that was barely a blip in the Remain conversation then - somehow 'don't be like those racists' and making lists of things they saw as benefits without touching on the problems was meant to be enough. It obviously wasn't. We can blame the manipulation of the Leave, and there was definitely some shite going on, but it's not like Cameron didn't have access to the same sort of people to make a campaign that might actually have had an impact - I guess their image of being able to use the EU as a punching bag was worth more than doing their job of considering people's issues and finding ways of improving things.

I didn't have a vote, but I live in an area that still has UKIP, Brexit Party, Reform councillors and people that openly discuss voting Leave. Most of the issues has already been mentioned. Really, it's felt less Farage, and more community spirit against so much not getting done and no one caring. Yeah, maybe not the best motivation and this is going to fuck things up hard, but a lot of them felt like things are already shite, what's a different kind of shite when many of the benefits being touted meant fuckall. Like, going on about freedom of movement and how hard it would be to travel and live abroad after Brexit to a community that has a high level of non-EU passports (people who probably already have an idea of how fucked up the immigration system - we've been dealing with all the measures for stricter immigration for decades now, but still had Remainers trying to teach us how to suck eggs) was a terrible idea before getting into the communities that have a very firm local identity.

No one in power cared about us before, no one does now, we'll weather whatever comes as best we can, let's all put baubles on the Co-Op tree to add a little joy to this shitfest is the general attitude of the area I live in. As much as I'd have voted Remain if I'd have been able, I can't really say they're wrong on that and as much as I dislike the Reform party, they're far more visible around here than anyone else. Is it any surprise people listened to them two incarnations ago when they're the ones doing and pushing for local changes people have been needing for years? It's not the best way to make choices, but the person who organized volunteers to collect rubbish when there was collection issue is going to get listened to more than the one who shamed locals for putting out too much rubbish using photos from a different city (so out of touch, he apparently didn't know what colour our bins are).

but I refuse to think all Leavers voted on racist grounds. That would be too depressing. And actually I don't think it's true.

A good friend of mine who is quite far left voted Leave because of the EU being, in his view, a neo-liberal institution, where labour laws etc were part of a globalisation process which we both see as problematic. He also argues that the structure & governance of the EU are un-democratic, as they give too much power to the administrative wing of the EU.

Our argument was mainly over the issue of whether reform of EU structures could happen by staying in, or whether leaving was the better option (I voted Remain - a no-brainer for me, and I know I'll be proven right in the long run).

(We're both university academics in the Humanities, so my colleague's view was not a knee jerk "Little Englander" one - quite the reverse).

On the question of racism - my HR administrator and I were having a chat about a post we're advertising (I chair the selection panel as Head of Department) and he said an interesting thing re EU freedom of movement, and the ability to range more widely in terms of employing people. At a university if we have 2 candidates pretty much equally well-qualified & we'e interviewed them both, and are still finding it difficult to decide (I've been in a recruitment position like that), our membership of the EU would require us to prioritise the EU citizen. Of course, if an non-EU citizen was clearly the best, we can appoint them. It's just when all other things are equal.

And my HR colleague commented that it seemed unfair that anyone, with any level of qualifications & likelihood of working, could come to the UK if they were an EU citizen, whereas we have to jump through quite high hoops for non-EU citizens, with equivalent or better qualifications.

This was quite the reverse of racism - he wanted to open things up & make it easier to have people from all over the world to live & work in the UK, not just EU citizens.(But I don't know how he voted & I would never ask of course).

[quote TantieTowie]@PoorMansPaulaRadcliffe I also have heard similar things said about Australia/New Zealand and the relationship we have with them.

OP, someone said on Twitter today that we are still not getting it. They said remainers tended to vote based on informed facts, but leavers voted based on emotions - so 'sovereignty' (setting our own laws, conducting our own trade policy etc) really mattered to them, in a way that I have to say it doesn't to me. I'd much rather have freedom of movement. After all, with a Tory government in power my vote doesn't have much influence on what happens in this country (except at a local level). But I think to the Ukippers who now make up much of the modern Tory Party, it really does.[/quote]
I see this argument all the time along with it aws only 51% against 48% etc.

However we had 3 years of shenanigans of politicians and media telling everyone how they had been lied to naive etc. and how bad an idea it was Bank Of England et al.

TheSunIsStillShining - so it was me then

So after all of that we come to a General Election that is all about Brexit. So now is the chance to change it, instead there is a landslide the other way. Remain lost one vote by a few points lost another by a distance. Strange after all teh explanations it didn't change.

It doesn't take 3 years to make an emotional decision.

Some remainers just don't want to accept the reasons why people voted the way they did and give credence to theirs and mock the others. I have already been told I didn't vote for the reasons given many times and again on this thread. I don't appreciate being called a LIAR

People have no idea how gut wrenching it would of been for 10,000s people to Vote Tory. I personally intended to but couldn't when push came to shove the rest of my family did.

Labour want to belive it was because of Corbyn because it suits the MP's agenda speak to the Northern MP's they will tell you differently.

If the loss was because of Corbyn why then the Liberal Democrat result given they were remain at all costs.

This does little to support remainers arguments so just glossed over.

At least, they can no longer hide behind someone elses fault.
For what I gatherhere issues to address are:

• zero hours contracts
• inequality and areas that lack of employment opportunities. So to provide jobs in those areas
• immigration control (maybe a skills based system, to attract doctors and nurses, and so on..), and integration. And securing the immigration status of EU and UK nationals, in both sides, allowing them to remain with their families, and where they have settled. By the way, just a reminder that the EU free movement did require the person to register and proof that they had a job or could support themselves in the country they moved to.
• policing of hate crimes, to include safeguarding against mysoginic attitudes
• high democratic accountability ( I would love this, because I bet you so many things will appear that had been blamed on someone else..)
• not sure mentioned, but the NHS. To ensure they are well staffed and funded. And to ensure it continues. Also, GPs, I do think they should be part of the NHS, and ensure they provide appointments to their patients (this was a problem in some highly populated areas before covid, because they make it impossible to get a routine appointment)
• food supplies, energy prices, housing prices. I think they have to subsidise or take measures so the prices do not go up too quickly, parts of the population are struggling to afford it, and I know my shopping bill keeps going up

Any more to add?

Another issue that arose of this whole shitshow is the very obvious no choice when it comes to GE. Technically there are options, but in reality these 2 options and the small fringe ones don't represent 2 massively distinguishable views. It's like voting for dark purple or light purple.
IMO a more varied color palette would be helpful.

WiseupJanetWeiss that's a very good analogy and David Milliband on Marr this morning was asking exactly the questions that I was trying to elicit from Leavers by starting this thread.

Where is the UK going as a country now? There have been many explanations about why Leavers voted a certain way, some of them very understandable, but apart from the odd indirect comment here and there, there have been no answers about what political direction we are going to take from 1st January.

Milliband explained why "no deal" would be a disaster and how Boris lied when talking to Nissan workers in Sunderland who were worried about their jobs when he said "we have an oven ready deal, ready to go"

He also made the point that as much as Brexit has been about leaving the EU behind, it is about where the UK is going now

Are we going to go for a low tax, deregulated economy? He explained how, for many practical and legal reasons, it isn't going to be possible to adopt roughly the same policies as the EU and carry on our own sweet way. It is our policy that we want to diverge!

Many haven't grasped that if you reject one set of political values, by definition you have to adopt another, just as by rejecting one set of trade deals with whomsoever, you still have to compromise "sovereignty" (if you want to put it that way) by making a trade deal with someone else. All trade deals, whoever they are with, come with conditions attached. And the UK may find that future trading partners may be less accommodating than anticipated (eg USA).

How can the UK government negotiate effectively when it seems that they are insisting on conditions which conflict with the basic club membership rules, which have spelt out and repeated ad infinitum?

No one has put the work in, least of all the PM. The reason the EU negotiations turned sour over the famous Brussels lunch was because the EU side were expecting Boris to walk in and have put the work in. They expected a proposition from him. They expected him to have a vision backed up with practical solutions. He hadn't put the work in. He had no new propositions and basically started reeling out the old dissatisfactions and arguments. That's when the atmosphere turned sour and it was reported that Boris was oblivious to what had happened. He has let the country down.

A lot of people who voted remain are in denial about the state of the country, its division and misery of a substantial number of people. And they still don't give a stuff.

FUSOI I think a lot of people who voted remain genuinely did so because they felt that THAT was the best way in which the most vulnerable and disenfranchised members of society could be protected and supported; and economic imbalances within the UK further levelled out. Life is horribly difficult for many people but please explain how is it going to improve when we leave the EU and there is less tax paid in to the economy, there is less protection for minimum wage workers, etc etc? A socialist utopia is hardly likely to arise from the ashes of Brexit that's for sure.

Corbyn should have made that argument but imho he lacked enough courage to actively move the Labour Party toward a Leave position, or even to advocate for compromise, so instead he basically laid low and opted out of debate. Unforgiveable.

The reality is you are never going to accept it and continue to blame "stupid people" for upsetting you.

Sorry but I think this is unfair. The majority of Remainers have made a concerted effort on this thread to remain civil and respectful. But that doesn't mean that we have to accept factually incorrect information as the truth.