Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

I disagree @CherryPavlova that the NHS is as good as other healthcare system.

Not me who said the NHS was inefficient. The "spent well" is important, because more money can be spent badly - which I would argue could be or is the case with the privatisations happening. And would certainly be the case if we went over to a US system and saw rocketing drugs prices.

@TonMoulin

I disagree *@CherryPavlova* that the NHS is as good as other healthcare system.

I said efficient. Per capita less is spent on NHS than any other healthcare system in developed world. Despite that, all people receive healthcare. Nobody is left to die because they can’t pay. Our outcomes are very comparable.

Imagine if the funding level were the same as some countries often said to be better.

It’s the view of WHO and Kings Fund based on solid research.

Peregrina. Apologies. Yes we do best at using generic rather than branded drugs - so costs would probably rocket..

IME many people want to move into well paid employment without either starting at the bottom and working their way up or lack the qualifications and the desire to get them.
Perhaps in London - but in regional areas that used to focus on coal and heavy industry there’s still very little to replace them. There are a LOT of qualified people who can’t get jobs in their region and don’t want to move away from family. There needs to be more job creation particularly in the north.

But now, in 2020, you ought to have new and different reasons for continuing to believe that Leave was the right choice
The reasons I voted Leave were largely a.Lies or b.Could have been fixed without Brexit if the government had given a shit. Literally my only reason for going ahead with Brexit is because if we don’t nothing will change. We need Brexit in order to make the government get off their arses and fix the things that could have been fixed without Brexit.

Your blaming of British poverty on "foreign" workers is distasteful.
Oh I don’t blame the foreign workers. I blame the government who permitted the foreign workers. As you said, other countries protected their citizens by setting limits on immigration. The government failed to set these limits so people voted for Brexit to force them to.

I thought our cancer outcomes were quite poor? Even the NHS says so.
I have used Swedish and French healthcare systems and they are leagues above what we have.

All academic now as CV19 has changed everything, how the NHS rebuilds from this without huge increases in funding & staff is anyones guess, even if that happened, it will still take years to catch up on delayed treatments.

DonkeyMcFluff

You put your trust in Govt's, who have let you down for years, to suddenly change?
They wont invest in the former industrial heartlands but they will swap one set of immigration for another, that is far less likely to return home as their economy grows.

If you want change, then stop voting in the fucking tories.

@yellowspanner

Listening quietly .....yes I am happy that we have left and will not be overseen by the ECJ and we'll have a points based immigration system....so, yes happy. I don't mind whether we get a deal or not as long as we have complete jurisdiction over our coastal waters.

What do you not like about the ECJ?

How often do you eat fish caught in English coastal waters by British boats (please name the species) ?

@yellowspanner

Listening quietly .....yes I am happy that we have left and will not be overseen by the ECJ and we'll have a points based immigration system....so, yes happy. I don't mind whether we get a deal or not as long as we have complete jurisdiction over our coastal waters.

So the fact that everything will be in more expensive, we'll be in a bigger recession than should be (I mean due to covid) and young people won't have the right to study/live/work on the nearest continent to us is perfectly okay, because ECJ and points based immigration. oh, and fish.

Not my priorities....

@jasjas1973

I thought our cancer outcomes were quite poor? Even the NHS says so. I have used Swedish and French healthcare systems and they are leagues above what we have.

All academic now as CV19 has changed everything, how the NHS rebuilds from this without huge increases in funding & staff is anyones guess, even if that happened, it will still take years to catch up on delayed treatments.

Our outcomes are slightly worse than some European countries for some cancers. It’s not as simple as one system is better than another though. Different demographics, to start. There is more forvNHS to do but outcomes in private healthcare in U.K. are same as NHS or in some cases, worse.

If you put outcomes against spending, our NHS comes at top of pile. Clearly, if countries spend a greater amount on healthcare, they can afford more and outcomes will be better. If we paid the same per person we wear exceed other countries.

It’s not about lack of efficiency; it’s about spending far less.

Yes i believe year on year we spend around 1 to 2% less than many EU countries, over time thats a lot of money.

When i lived in Sweden i was amazed at their health service, state hospitals were like BUPA ones here but with AE and ICU.

Sweden sounds totally marvellous and in the Social Policy world is considered an Exemplar.

Now the only mystery is:

Why aren't we all, and the entire world, banging on Sweden's door wanting to be let in?

Why would anyone leave such a 'paradise'? maybe jas can answer that as she used to live there, but left.

You know where I'm going with this....allow yourselves a joke or two.

@HateIsNotGood

Sweden sounds totally marvellous and in the Social Policy world is considered an Exemplar.

Now the only mystery is:

Why aren't we all, and the entire world, banging on Sweden's door wanting to be let in?

Why would anyone leave such a 'paradise'? maybe jas can answer that as she used to live there, but left.

You know where I'm going with this....allow yourselves a joke or two.

Sweden spends about £1,000 more per person on healthcare annually. Paid for with high taxation. Lots of people wouldn’t vote for high taxation in U.K. We expect excellence in our hospitals, schools and other services, but don’t want to pay for it.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be goady, but anyone still banging on about fish is either braindead or John Redwood. I.e. braindead.

Now the only mystery is:

Why aren't we all, and the entire world, banging on Sweden's door wanting to be let in?

Plenty do but like most of the EU (and unlike the UK) they do have controls & a contributory benefits system.

Why would anyone leave such a 'paradise'? maybe jas can answer that as she used to live there, but left

Relationship went south, Mum was ill so i'd have had to leave in anycase... its also very cold, that still doesn't alter the fact they have a very good healthcare system, oh and education, transport, leisure..... When i was there, i don't think i ever saw a homeless person, though i think that has changed.

Taxes are high BUT you don't need to buy the extras that you do over here or have all the extra little taxes we put up with.

Nobody is left to die because they can’t pay. Our outcomes are very comparable.

Well actually they are effectively. They’re left to die because there’s not enough NHS money or resources to treat them and they can’t afford private treatment.

And our cancer survival rates are poor. That’s even taking into account that they have improved.

A recent study of 7 cancers over 10 years in comparable high income countries globally, the U.K. was at the bottom for 5/7 of those including bowel, lung and pancreatic.

The problem seems to be late diagnosis and insufficient staff. The key to cancer survival is prompt diagnosis and treatment.

But how do our cancer survival rates compare to the USA. Or is it just impossible to compare because poor Americans just suffer in silence?

@Peregrina

But how do our cancer survival rates compare to the USA. Or is it just impossible to compare because poor Americans just suffer in silence?

The Yanks don't have a health service, so its an unfair comparison.

We are heading that way, CV will speed up the process.

Its really not as simple as comparing mortality rates because issues such as early diagnosis and treatment play a huge part. The figures are skewed where people die with a cancer rather than because of a cancer and conversely where people die of undiagnosed and untreated cancer where they do not have access to healthcare.

The graphs attached show very clearly that mortality is very closely linked to healthcare spending. The UK does not spend anywhere near the same amount of money on healthcare as other nations, but expects better outcomes. If we want good health outcomes we need to fund it properly and not lazily suggest the Tory lies that it is about inefficiency. It's about less money; you can't buy a handbag from the market and expect it to be the same quality as one from John Lewis.

Rich Americans fare well - unless they get a disease that is expensive to keep treating such as pulmonary fibrosis where they end up not having transplant funded or being unable to afford oxygen. Poor Americans fare, far, far worse.

ListeningQuietly, what I eat or don't eat is non of your business.
Control of our fishing waters is a sovereignty issue.

@yellowspanner

ListeningQuietly, what I eat or don't eat is non of your business. Control of our fishing waters is a sovereignty issue.

No point controlling them if they have no economic value .....

If the fish in them is saved for conservation purposes, all well and good.
Not worth jeapordising trade deals on the other 99.4% of the economy

If the fish are going to be caught, a close trade deal to make sure they make it to customers' plates is rather key.

My Mum voted leave due to immigration. 5 months later, she moved abroad to another EU country.
A move that had been planned since well before the referendum.

The irony.

@TabithaTowers

My Mum voted leave due to immigration. 5 months later, she moved abroad to another EU country. A move that had been planned since well before the referendum.

The irony.

In those sorts of cases, if the country concerned asked her to leave, one wouldn't be shedding too many tears.

ListeningQuietly, there is every point to controlling our borders as we are with a points based immigration system and to controlling our coastal waters. We will issue licences to fish and theses will be under our control not the EUs