Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

They want fair treatment and opportunities to earn their own money in decent jobs.
Which is exactly the point of schemes like Erasmus.

"Not in traditional areas.
The clip on question time when the lady a daughter of a ex labour councillor was crying because she voted Tory because of Brexit was the rule rather than the exception

If it wsa that cut and dried and so many wanted to Remain, what happened to the Lib Dem vote, the cOrbyn effect again."

I live in a "traditional area" (whatever the fuck that means). Labour won here only because the dumbfuck Brexit Party split the Tory vote. Time and again "Corbyn" came up as the reason people voted against Labour or didn't vote. "Get this over with" was another reason.

And the LibDem vote was a wasted load of shite on a hopeless bunch who don't even know what women are.

Poor people don’t want handouts (well, most of them don’t). They want fair treatment and opportunities to earn their own money in decent jobs

But they don’t necessarily want to get the qualifications to obtain a decent job that pays well. They only want term time or school hours. They don’t want to take the longer route through long hours and moving around the country.

Plenty of recruiting going on in reasonably paid jobs that offer potential for longer term growth into well paid jobs. I assume the leave people wanting employment have applied for nursing or the armed forces? Both recruiting currently. Need an amount of commitment for both but good opportunities. The truth is we cannot recruit healthcare staff from the UK population. That’s nothing to do with poor pay.

Good morning all. Thanks for everyone's contributions to this thread.

I've tried to keep it focused on the future, post -Brexit, and what Leavers want a future UK to look like in terms of policy and legislation. But many posters seem intent on re-hashing the past without coming up with any potential solutions.

This obsession with looking back is, imho, reflective of the UK as a whole when it voted for Brexit in 2016. "Taking back control", "Making Britain great again" etc. All the rhetoric has been negative about what the UK doesn't want or doesn't like about the EU but not a huge amount has been said about what the UK wants to do differently . (I know for some Leavers. just having "full sovereignty" returned to them is enough but to my mind they haven't explained why it's ok to give some of it it up again for dealings with the wto and other third countries.). The government is providing scant detailed information about future strategies from the NY and beyond. I am not even sure how they can negotiate effectively on the UK's behalf without setting out a proper vision first. The negotiations to date seem piecemeal and focused on circumventing specific issues; a bit like converting old ramshackle barns in to a modern house by addressing the problems in each individual room without any reference to a master plan.

While it's important to know why people voted the way they did (thank you FUSOI and others, for highlighting the crucially important issues relating to child poverty, the working poor , homelessness, 0 hrs contracts etc which I agree cannot be ignored any longer ) I think it's a bit of a cop out to constantly reiterate all the problems without suggesting any solutions; particularly with the risk of a falling GDP invested in public services.

Leavers won the vote. 1st January is fast approaching. What do they envisage the Government is going to do with their mandate? You have voted for the UK to diverge away from EU so something, by definition, is going to have to replace and be different from that which we have voluntarily walked away from. What is it? And will it be better than what we had before? (Some Leavers here apparently don't think so - have said that repeatedly - but voted for Leave anyway.)

One or two posters like LouiseCollins28 and DonkeyMcFluff (apologies if I have missed anyone) have set out some concrete deas for the future in detail so massive thank yous for that. We even managed to agree on a few points so that is heartening. (And LouiseCollins28 I take your point about Uber etc! I was rushing to answer the first of your posts in my lunch hour yesterday ).

I didn't get a chance to vote in the referendum and my life is about to be turned upside down by Brexit so I feel as angry and upset (and currently very stressed for practical reasons) as any avid Remainer about leaving the EU. Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke were silenced, Parliament prorogued, the withdrawal agreement has been signed; the transition period is nearly over. The UK is moving on. Personally I think Leavers have put blind faith in to a Government undeserving of that gift. And ironically, I think many people in the UK will only start to appreciate the benefits we had being part of the world's largest trading block, once we have left and it's all too late. But despite all of this, from now on, Remainers and Leavers have to find some new way of moving forward together. To what end though, is still largely unclear.

I'm

@jasjas1973

Fusio

Leaving was a done deal by the time of the 2019 election, i thought you were referring to the period after vote?

The 2016 result had to be implemented after DC made his promises that it would be - thats why the LD vote collapsed, of course had the country voted LD, Swinson would have had the mandate to cancel Brexit but that message didn't come across.

May was in thrall to her party where the majority wanted a hard brexit, she couldn't get the country behind her and lost the majority in 2017, so i don't think the majority you think there is for Brexit actually exists, just 37% of the electorate voted for this change.

That was the time for opposition to seek a softer brexit but they couldn't get behind JC, he wouldn't step aside, so we had years of dither, in 2019 people thought BJ had a deal to go and voted on that basis, he lied.

Sorry for any confusion but I was trying to say that by the 2019 GE was there were 2 distinct options. Vote To Leave Vote To Stay (or Remain in all but Name) Thats what the GE was all about a simple choice for most people, thats how a lot of people view it anyway IMHO

But they don’t necessarily want to get the qualifications to obtain a decent job that pays well. They only want term time or school hours. They don’t want to take the longer route through long hours and moving around the country.

People want decent jobs in their local area which don’t involve risking life or limb, which don’t require them to spend £50k on a degree, which allow them to get paid and have a normal life, and which allow them to service their family and social responsibilities. They don’t want to move away and not be able to look after each other. They don’t want to spend £50k on a degree, and if they do they expect graduate level employment not the same job they would have got without the degree. We should be supporting part time working which benefits our social structure, especially when it means kids can have access to a parent. We’d be fucked if everyone who works part time so they can offer free care to family members suddenly decided to work full time and put that burden on care providers or the state.

Post Brexit we should be looking at legislation to get people into work. If they’re being undercut by foreign workers we need laws to prevent that. If there are insufficient jobs in some regions we need to invest in them. If people have care responsibilities we need to make care more affordable and support employers in making flexible work available. If certain essential jobs are unattractive then we need to increase the salary.

People want to work. Most of them don’t want handouts - they want opportunities. They were never going to vote to preserve the salaries of those who pay into the benefits pot - they voted to be in a position where they don’t need benefits.

@Europilgrim

They want fair treatment and opportunities to earn their own money in decent jobs. Which is exactly the point of schemes like Erasmus.

Sorry but that hows all GE works all the governments and the misery inflicted by them particularly Tory have been with minorities.

Its amazing how teh bones are picked out of it and democracy, poles etc. are mentioned when in reality its all about not agreeing.

@bellinisurge

"Not in traditional areas. The clip on question time when the lady a daughter of a ex labour councillor was crying because she voted Tory because of Brexit was the rule rather than the exception

If it wsa that cut and dried and so many wanted to Remain, what happened to the Lib Dem vote, the cOrbyn effect again."

I live in a "traditional area" (whatever the fuck that means). Labour won here only because the dumbfuck Brexit Party split the Tory vote. Time and again "Corbyn" came up as the reason people voted against Labour or didn't vote. "Get this over with" was another reason.

You really need to grow up and walk away. You acting like afouled mouth spoilt Brat.

Here's a link to a dossier compiled by Led By Donkeys of all Johnson's promises.

If you voted Leave, click on it to find how much you were lied to.
If you voted Remain, click on it to find what a lying piece of shit says . Just to confirm you did the right thing.

johnsondossier.com/

@FUSOI , I'll swear as much as I fucking well like

Post Brexit we should be looking at legislation to get people into work. If they’re being undercut by foreign workers we need laws to prevent that. If there are insufficient jobs in some regions we need to invest in them. If people have care responsibilities we need to make care more affordable and support employers in making flexible work available. If certain essential jobs are unattractive then we need to increase the salary

We live in a market economy, interventions that you suggest don't work, they ve been tried before.
Business has to make money, support for employers means taxpayers funding uneconomical jobs, which is unsustainable, large wage rises cause inflation.... uness your Dominic cummings :(

Take the example of my DD, the first of her family to to Uni, sure 50k of debt but is now applying for jobs in the 28 to 35k bracket, all within the NHS & plenty of vacancies.
As a fall back has a job offer in Australia.

IME many people want to move into well paid employment without either starting at the bottom and working their way up or lack the qualifications and the desire to get them.

This is where the work ethic of east europeans shows through, they'll work bloody hard and before long become team leaders or managers.

[quote bellinisurge]@FUSOI , I'll swear as much as I fucking well like[/quote]
Stamps Feet, Folds Arms, Pet Lip.

Ah Didums, have a boo boo, there there.

Should I kiss it better

I'm bowing out of this thread now because despite efforts to keep it civil, it is turning in to just the sort of discussion I want to avoid.

*IME many people want to move into well paid employment without either starting at the bottom and working their way up or lack the qualifications and the desire to get them.

This is where the work ethic of east europeans shows through, they'll work bloody hard and before long become team leaders or managers.*

I totally agree. When we came here 10 yrs ago we were those pesky foreigners. My husband started a job for peanuts at 25k (London, software engineer). I started higher, but below market average. We needed to as we didn't have any UK references. We didn't feel it beneath us to do so, even though we both had 10+ years of experience in our fields. (diff circumstance, I know, but somehow reflects)

Throughout my career here I have had -to some extent- mentor juniors. They don't know the meaning of the word: humble. They want everything, now, and obv. they know it better than me. 1 year of experience makes them perfect. They don't want to learn, and most don't want to think. They will use the bog standard process and if there is a variation they fuck up. They are always very vocal if a template is not available, but not one of them actually created their own template!

Post Brexit we should be looking at legislation to get people into work. If they’re being undercut by foreign workers we need laws to prevent that. If there are insufficient jobs in some regions we need to invest in them. If people have care responsibilities we need to make care more affordable and support employers in making flexible work available. If certain essential jobs are unattractive then we need to increase the salary

@DonkeyMcFluff the plans you outline have absolutely nothing to do with Brexit, and everything to do with successive Tory governments, starting with Maggie Thatcher's neo-liberal economics.

The decision to allow 'cheap' non-UK citizens was very much a UK government decision - other EU countries set stronger limits and safeguards for national populations; the UK didn't because it suited the government to serve big business, and cut wages. This has been Tory policy since Thatcher. Human capital (in the form of skilled labour) is seen as expendable.

Your blaming of British poverty on "foreign" workers is distasteful.

One thing we can probably agree on is more money for the NHS, but we need to be careful here. Privatising it, American style will cost more. What we really want to see is more money used well

@Peregrina
I'd go as far as the same amount of money, but spent correctly would be a step forward.
Public sector in general tends to be inefficient.

Having worked in both the public and private sectors I wouldn't agree that the public sector in general tends to be inefficient. Some public sectors are very efficient; some private sector jobs are shambolic.

I've worked in both in multiple counties and I don't agree on the first part. The second one: totally!

People were told many things that weren't true by the Leave camp, for example that Turkey was about to join the EU, or that there were plans for a grand European Army.

I will NOT claim people were "stupid" for making decisions on the basis of such falsehoods. The lies were widely and frequently circulated across much of the media, and repeated by many opinion-formers and politicians. No surprise many people believed them. Were they influenced? Definitely. Were they stupid to be influenced? No.

But there has to be a place for reality in the Brexit debate too. We know now that the Turkey story was a lie. That's reality.

It's fine to say "In 2016, I voted Leave because I believed that Turkey would join the EU." That's a summary of how you felt at the time, based on the information you had access to back then. It's useful insight into your mindset when you made the decision you did.

But now, in 2020, you ought to have new and different reasons for continuing to believe that Leave was the right choice. If your original reasons for voting Leave have since been debunked, they can't continue to prop up your original choice.

I'm not calling for contrition. I am not calling for an apology. Certainly not! I am merely suggesting that, if the basis of your 2016 vote turned out to be false, you should probably find a different basis for holding onto the idea that you chose correctly.

Listening quietly .....yes I am happy that we have left and will not be overseen by the ECJ and we'll have a points based immigration system....so, yes happy. I don't mind whether we get a deal or not as long as we have complete jurisdiction over our coastal waters.

[quote TheSunIsStillShining]@Peregrina
I'd go as far as the same amount of money, but spent correctly would be a step forward.
Public sector in general tends to be inefficient.[/quote]
Actually , the NHS is about the most efficient healthcare system in the world. There are fewer doctors and nurses per capita, lower spending per capita and fewer beds per capita. Performance and outcomes are generally comparable to better funded systems.

There is slightly worse performance on some cancer outcomes but the reasons behind that are complex and involves demographic issues as much as healthcare provision.

@Spittingchestnuts,, I think you have an excellent question.

I’m not a leaver so can’t answer what my hopes are.

But I’m finding it frightening that there has been no discussion between leavers on what sort of future they wanted.
We’ve had a lot of infighting with the ERG. A clear. Movement towards a harder and harder brexit as time went.
But no discussion on what was. The aim with it all.

Sovereignty, ability to make your own laws isn’t an aim imo. It’s what you will do with that that is crucial.