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Brexit

Westminstenders: a feature of the system not a bug

960 replies

RedToothBrush · 25/11/2020 16:02

Tests on the new queuing system in Kent have revealed that lengthy tail backs are a feature not a bug.

We should get used to them because thats normal not the system malfunctioning, but the planned system working as designed.

Today we have found out that there's no money left. The economy is fucked. And tomorrow we will probably all be in T3 with the Isles of Wight, the tip of Cornwall and inner Westminster the only places left in T1.

Christmas has apparently been 'saved' though. Well if you are dumb and lacking in functional brain cells its 'saved'. Trade for Christmas is already thoroughly goosed and indoor family gatherings may come with a extra side of covid. The BBC have done an epic job of 'doommongering project fear' style graphics on this wonderful subject.

Tis the season to be jolly. Jolly fucked.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
36
Peregrina · 01/12/2020 22:55

Well, that's a bit of a turn up for the book. 55 Tory MPs did vote against Johnson's lockdown rules.

I have only just read the news, not seen the details.

Peregrina · 01/12/2020 22:58

breakdown of the vote here.

Peregrina · 01/12/2020 23:08

Even deadwood Redwood managed to vote against. May abstained.

FrankieStein402 · 02/12/2020 00:16

Previous thread i was musing whether there was any contract these clowns had awarded that wasn't to a 'chum' - i guess this might be one:

Firm given free school meals voucher contract despite ‘limited evidence’ of capability

Or more likely the 'chum' hasn't been identified yet.

borntobequiet · 02/12/2020 03:14

@Peregrina

Well, that's a bit of a turn up for the book. 55 Tory MPs did vote against Johnson's lockdown rules.

I have only just read the news, not seen the details.

Lots of Brexiters against - no surprise given their general beliefs, but an interesting rift so near to such an unsatisfactory “Boris Brexit”. I hope they’re feeling betrayed as fuck on every level.
GaspodeWonderCat · 02/12/2020 08:04

A reminder of Rebus’s patented recipe for Scotch Eggs:

Put eggs on to boil.
Pour a Scotch while you wait.
Keep drinking.
Throw away the eggs.

twitter.com/beathhigh/status/1333802426885804034

Peregrina · 02/12/2020 08:30

I hope now that if Johnson does get a deal that, as yesterday, most of the Opposition abstain but the rebels continue to rebel. That way, the Deal will get through, but if it goes tits up, which we expect, then it can be laid fairly and squarely at the Tories' door. None of this, "well they all voted for it" as we have seen with A50 legislation, WA agreement and so on.

If, in the unlikely event that the country does begin to prosper, say within five years, then Johnson will be able to take some credit.

Peregrina · 02/12/2020 08:41

.. although if it wasn't the same people who are pro No Deal as are voting against the covid measures, I would have some sympathy for them. Locally there haven't been many cases, but I wonder just how many local businesses will have been wrecked. I am quite sure tier 1 would have been OK for us.

DrBlackbird · 02/12/2020 09:36

I was surprised to see my local MP being one of the rebels and voting against given that he was a) a remainer way back when, so not hard core brexiteer, but b) had recently been climbing the shiny party ladder and c) our area is going to be in Tier 3 as of today because our rates were so high (but dropped by half with the national lockdown).

Must be the last one...our businesses are going to go down the drain stuck in tier 3 with hospitality closed in the lead to Christmas.

But how'd he have the courage to vote against gov't unless he heard rumours of Johnson losing party favour and he's pinning his colours to the mast early? Ah the intrigue of Westminster though...

TheElementsOfMedical · 02/12/2020 09:43

In the interests of even-handedness, I give you all this:

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/02/pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-licence-for-use-in-the-uk

The vaccine has been authorised for emergency use by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Authority (MHRA), ahead of decisions by the US and Europe. The MHRA was given power to approve the vaccine by the government under special regulations before 1 January, when it will become fully responsible for medicines authorisation in the UK after Brexit.

(Disclaimer: I know nothing about medicines authorisation)

HannibalHayes · 02/12/2020 10:40

A good thread summing up where we are;

⚡️BREXIT TELEGRAM⚡️

The final weeks of the UK. After 99 years, ended by Brexit.

Unacceptably long thread, to mark one month to B-Day. For anyone, UK or elsewhere, interested enough in Brexit to read to the end.

One month to go. One crisis ahead. No info. /1.
▪️▪️With a month to go, no one knows what’s going to happen in the UK’s relationship to its nearest neighbour, the world’s second largest economy. Except that it’ll be bad. ▪️▪️

🔺 The Rule of 6, 4, 2

6, 4 & 2. Remember those numbers. /2.
Under current government policy, the UK’s due to leave the second largest economy in the world: the EU Customs Union & Single Market. The terms on which it would do so are unclear. With 31 days to go.

If there’s“no deal”, on 1 Jan the UK will lurch into a crisis, .../3.
... reducing the present value of the UK economy by around 6%. [PV: total economic output due to be created over the coming years, with value creation further in the future subject to a discount compared to earlier years].

That’s if the country keeps going without .../4.
... failure of critical services, industries & infrastructure under the acute disruptions which may occur in a “no deal” scenario.

But there might be a “deal”. So perhaps all’s well.

Setting aside the extraordinary fact that we simply don’t know if there’ll be one, .../5.
... or what it’ll say, there’s another major problem. The UK-EU negotiations centre around options any of which would badly disrupt the UK economy & society, just not as severely as a “no deal”.

Based on what appears to be under discussion, a “deal” would reduce .../6.
... the PV of the UK economy by about 4%. And, similar to “no deal”, would also likely lead to acute disruptions which could spiral out of control, leading to much greater damage.

🔺 Covid Carnage and Brexit

6%, 4% - who cares? At least it’s not anything like the .../7.
... massive hit of Covid. Sure, any damage is bad. But if we can survive Covid, isn’t Brexit a walk in the park?

Remember: 6, 4, 2. The PV economic hit from Covid is likely to be 2%. The deep economic retrenchment of 2020 looks set to be temporary. The damage from Brexit .../8.
... is systemic & indefinite. If there’s a “deal”. Even worse if there’s “no deal”.

And impacts are additive. 6% + 2% makes a 8% reduction in PV.

🔺 Crisis Watch

The acute disruptions which realistically could occur include:

  • trade across the English Channel. About .../9.
... 11,000 trucks per day (4 million per year) & several freight trains (2,000 per year) cross. This represents, in round figures, of the order of 20% by value of the UK’s global trade, about 40% of its global trade in goods & about 80% of its goods trade with the EU, .../10. ... much for critical & highly time sensitive sectors;
  • medical supplies;
  • food supplies;
  • air services;
  • transport links;
  • police and related security cooperation against serious & violent crime, terrorism and customs fraud. /11.
Naturally, attempts are being made to reduce the likelihood of these & mitigate them if they happen. But it’s worth bearing in mind two points, one general, one a specific illustration:

(a) we’re in this situation. Just think about that statement. It’s beyond stunning; /12.
(b) truck parks, covering vast areas, for stacking thousands of trucks at a time, for unknown periods, are being built across the country, particularly in Kent, home to the Channel Tunnel crossing and Port of Dover. “Being built”. We’re just over four weeks away. /13.
🔺 Ireland and the Impossibility of Brexit

Ireland is central to this story. Bear with me, even if you’re familiar with the background.

The two large islands of Great Britain & Ireland are separated by the Irish Sea. Let’s rehearse some history. It’s important. /14.
And very badly understood in England. Not least in the Conservative Party, now showing many signs of being the English Nationalist Party, in all but name.

Great Britain: from 1536 Wales was a principality under English rule. In 1707 England entered into a Union .../15.
... with Scotland, forming the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

Ireland followed, in 1801, becoming part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland. During the First World War & its aftermath, the Irish independence movement came into violent conflict with .../16.
... the UK government. Ireland achieved independence in 1922.

But part of the north of the island, the territory now officially known as Northern Ireland (current population 1.9 million), remained in the UK, which in turn became the .../17.
... United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. This resulted from a Christian-religious (Catholic/ Protestant), cultural & socio-economic divide, with Ireland as a whole being strongly majority Catholic, supporting an independent, united Ireland & the counties of .../18.
... what became Northern Ireland being majority Protestant. The latter had entrenched economic & social positions distinguishing (often benefiting) them from the Catholic population & supported the Union./19.
Irish leaders conceded part of the island remaining in the UK, in the context of threat of violence (“terrible & immediate war”) from the UK government, & the parallel danger of violence from Unionists in the North.

In the 1960s demonstrations started in Northern Ireland,.../20.
... opposing discrimination against Catholics. In 1969 a three decades long terrorist campaign by republican paramilitaries started in NI, attempting to force the end of UK rule. Pro-UK paramilitaries also engaged in terrorist killing & UK government forces carried out a .../21.
... number of highly controversial, fatal operations. An average of around 120 people were shot dead or blown up each year, 1972 being the worst, with nearly 500 dead.

In 1998, with the UK & the Republic of Ireland integrated into the EU, after joining the EEC in 1973, .../22.
... the UK-Irish treaty, the Good Friday Agreement, was concluded. Its key provisions, which assumed the EU membership of both the UK & RoI, were designed to:

  • ensure seamless economic, social & cultural life across the island of Ireland, with no border between NI & RoI;.../23.
...
  • allow for NI to leave the UK (&, if so wished, unify with RoI) if a majority in NI supported that via a process of democratic consent set out in the treaty;
  • end violence, with all paramilitary groups formally ending their campaigns & surrendering their weapons. /24.
It’s fundamental to an understanding of the UK’s relationship with the EU to be clear there’s no possible form of Brexit, except one, which credibly meets the legal & political intent of the Good Friday Agreement. It’s also important to note that the USA & the EU .../25. ...are guarantors of that treaty.

🔺 A Full Irish Brexit?

The Brexit which can be GFA compatible is one in which the UK stays in the EU Customs Union & Single Market. That means following all present & future EU rules, but having no say in them.

Any other Brexit .../26.
... requires a border on the island of Ireland, or between GB and NI - leaving NI effectively in the EU’s territory & separating it from the rest of the UK (without democratic consent in NI). The only two ways out of that, other than reversing Brexit, are either: .../27.
... (a) the UK repudiates & leaves the GFA treaty, with all the consequences which would flow;

(b) RoI leaves the EU & forms a customs union & single market with the UK.

The first of these would destabilise the whole of Ireland, would be illegal (there’s no exit clause .../28.
... from the GFA), and would bring unspecified, significant, retribution upon the UK from the USA. The second is a remarkable suggestion, which is put forward with apparent seriousness by English nationalist politicians. Let’s just say: political hell will freeze over first. /29.
🔺 Cakeism

The Johnson government has sought, as in so much, to keep its preferred cake in its larder, while eating it at the same time. To have its impossible Brexit, while not destroying Ireland & the UK, or the USA’s (& EU’s) relationship with the UK. /30.
Their technique is to separate NI from the UK & then pretend three untrue things are true. That:

  1. NI hasn’t been separated from the UK;
  2. despite the lack of democratic consent for the separation of NI from the UK (which the government, in making this argument, .../31.
... temporarily forgets it claims hasn’t happened) there is in fact such consent, because it will be permitted four years after the separation of NI has already taken place;
  1. what they’re doing - a plainly highly unstable arrangement, & one which ends the UK .../32.
... which has existed since 1922 - is politically & legally sustainable.

🔺 Caledonian Calamity

So much for Ireland & NI. In Scotland the Brexit debacle has caused a significant shift in public opinion, with now consistent majorities in favour of independence from the UK. /33.
Scottish independence can happen by a peaceful, democratic, legally regulated process. Or chaotically. Red warning lights are starting to flash. Of course, it could also not happen. But that’s the point: Brexit, & the English nationalism of which it’s a main expression, .../34.
... is slowly but surely squeezing the life out of the status quo option. Even in Wales, support for independence has reached 30%, which is astonishing. Imagine it: 500 years of history, & the UK itself, ended by Brexit. In the name of the recovery of UK “sovereignty”. /35.
🔺 Hotel California Brexit or British Breakup

In summary, therefore, the UK-Ireland dimension prevents any politically or legally sustainable Brexit, other than continued Customs Union & Single Market membership. Any Brexit “deal”, or “no deal”, ends the UK on 1 January, .../36.
... with NI being splintered off, & likely precipitates the UK’s complete disintegration, with the departure of Scotland & even Wales.

🔺 From the Regulatory to the Fishily Foolish

What of the possible “deal”? The discussions between UK & EU are mainly on the .../37.
... trade & economic consequences of the UK leaving the EU Customs Union & Single Market.

The issues which have been “solved” so far will, in fact, lead to serious problems for the UK (& some for the EU), a number of which are touched on, above. /38.
Two big issues not “solved” are the so-called “level playing field” & fishing. The first of these is fundamental. The second is farcical.

The LPF is the EU’s way of saying the UK has to abide by the EU’s regulatory regime or be substantially hindered from participating .../39.
...in the EU’s market. The more access the UK has to the EU market, the more it has to abide by EU regulations. The UK, characteristically, is looking at the cake it currently has (unfettered access to the EU market, still, during the 2020 transition period) & would like .../40.
... to keep it - it’s a highly valuable privilege, as our PM & chief negotiator well know - while eating it (ignoring, as the UK sees fit, any or all of the EU’s regulations).

The UK claims that the EU provided Canada with a similar arrangement in a recent free trade .../41.
... agreement (“CETA”). That’s wrong. But even if it were true, Canada does about 1/5th the amount of trade with the EU compared to the UK, its economy is about 60% that of the UK, and it’s over 5,000 km from, not next door to, the EU. /42.
The EU can, with low risk, offer things to a country like Canada, which it won’t countenance for a country of the UK’s economic size & level of trade, right on its doorstep. The LPF discussion could easily collapse into a “no deal”. /43.
As for fishing, back in 1972 during membership negotiations, the UK had to agree to the EEC fishing rules. There was much anger from fishing & anti-EEC folk. But, that was that. Now, here we are again, 48 years later. Fishing is 0.02% of UK GDP. /44.
The UK could pay every fisherperson double to stay at home. No one would notice the rounding error.

🔺 Pariah State UK

Before completing this round up, let’s remember that the Brexit under discussion removes the citizenship rights in the UK of every EU citizen & forces .../45.
... those resident in the UK to apply for a lesser status, which they might not get, with the associated threat of deportation and destruction of family life.

And let’s recall, as the incoming Biden Administration is bit by bit making clear, that .../46.
... Brexit destabilises the US-led alliance on which the UK, Europe & the wider world depend for economic prosperity & national security.

If the UK does crash out on 1 January - either with a “deal” (terrible) or “no deal” (worse than terrible) - .../47.
... the result will be instability, confusion &, quite possibly, acute crisis. The USA & other countries will not just stand by if their vital national interests - as they choose to interpret them - are under threat. Nor will they help the UK out of the mess it’s created .../48.
... for itself, if it’s just a matter of sentiment or sympathy. The UK’s fate will be firmly in the hands of others.

🔺 Final thoughts

Voluntarily reducing your country’s prosperity & security is lunacy. Or so it seems to many of us. /49.
Doing so in the middle of a once in a century pandemic brings a new quality to the level of dystopian, mental contortion at play.

It’s hard, at least for those like me who’ve been fortunate enough to live our lives in what we thought was national stability & safety .../50.
... (despite bumpy patches) to come to terms with the extremity of irresponsibility, incompetence & insanity which has become the norm over the last five years. But here we all are. /51.
And all for a Brexit - a viciously insular vision of English nationalism, cloaked by some in vacuous & cynically fake rhetoric about “Global Britain” - which is untenable. /52.
A Brexit which will, “deal” or “no deal”, terminate the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, after 99 years. The country for which its principal promise was it would “take back control”.

Thirty-one days. 6, 4, 2. Tick tock.

TheABC · 02/12/2020 10:56

It's astonishing when you lay it out like that, in the thread. And we are dickering over fish?

ListeningQuietly · 02/12/2020 12:34

A bit of double counting of the trucks in that thread - the freight trains carry lorries mostly

Tanith · 02/12/2020 12:38

"It's astonishing when you lay it out like that, in the thread. And we are dickering over fish?"

And Scotch eggs. Hmm

pussycatinboots · 02/12/2020 13:11

Off topic...
The UK regulator is the first in the world to authorise use of the P/B vaccine.
The US think washing chicken in bleach and feeding cattle growth hormone is safe...and yet soon to be former President Trump hasn't put enough pressure on the US regulators to authorise use before us 🤔
This + Hannibals post worry me.
I'd like to know how much we've paid for a relatively untested/unproven vaccine and how the hell are we going to fund it.

DGRossetti · 02/12/2020 13:26

The UK regulator is the first in the world to authorise use of the P/B vaccine.

On the basis that you didn't actually need a vaccine to have a plan to vaccinate, that's another fuckup for UK.plc

Even now they haven't a clue what to do.

ListeningQuietly · 02/12/2020 13:31

I am quite relaxed about the vaccine/s
because of the background to its/their development
and will take it as soon as I can (but I'm low risk so probably April or May at the earliest)

DGRossetti · 02/12/2020 13:42

@ListeningQuietly

I am quite relaxed about the vaccine/s because of the background to its/their development and will take it as soon as I can (but I'm low risk so probably April or May at the earliest)
www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1202/1181886-coronavirus-vaccine-eu/

...
In an unusually blunt statement, the European Medicines Agency (EMA), which is in charge of approving Covid-19 vaccines for the EU, said its longer approval procedure was more appropriate.
...

Speaking for myself, when there's a proven infrastructure around the administration of the vaccine, I'll be first in line.

ListeningQuietly · 02/12/2020 13:46

Speaking for myself, when there's a proven infrastructure around the administration of the vaccine, I'll be first in line.
Indeed
and by then multiple vaccines will have been approved in multiple jurisdictions Smile

DGRossetti · 02/12/2020 13:49

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-30/london-thrown-to-the-lions-with-no-brexit-finance-deal-likely

The golden age of the City of London began with a big bang. It’s ending with a whimper.

Fears that the finance powerhouse that emerged from Margaret Thatcher’s 1986 deregulation known as the Big Bang will gradually be dismantled have deepened with a recent flurry of announcements about some business heading to the European Union as Britain enters the last month of the Brexit transition period without a financial-services deal in sight.

The latest shift came Monday at 8 a.m., when London Stock Exchange Group Plc’s stock trading platform Turquoise Europe went live in Amsterdam. It joins other trading venues like Cboe Europe and Aquis Exchange Plc setting up shop on the continent as part of their no-deal Brexit plans, a contrast with the late 1980s, which ushered in a period where London became the place to be for equities trading.

(contd)

DGRossetti · 02/12/2020 13:54

@ListeningQuietly

Speaking for myself, when there's a proven infrastructure around the administration of the vaccine, I'll be first in line. Indeed and by then multiple vaccines will have been approved in multiple jurisdictions Smile
I don't think I explained myself properly.

I'm not concerned about the licensing etc of the vaccine - as you say there are plenty of non-UK regulators to trust.

I am talking about the infrastructure needed to deal with recording and providing proof - to a consistent, logical and practical standard - that a person has been vaccinated.

As of midday on 2nd December 2020, I have seen nothing in the past 9 months of the UK governments "handling" (and I use that word in the loosest possible sense) of the situation that makes me think there will ever be such a thing. Especially if the only evidence you have to argue against me is Track and Trace ...

The miracle won't be the vaccine. It will be the competent governance needed to roll it out.

ListeningQuietly · 02/12/2020 14:00

DGR
I have my smallpox jab scar and my BCG scar on my arm.

I do not trust this UK government to plug the fridges in
but I do trust the drugs companies to make sure their efforts are not wasted.
This is a situation where the politicians will be - rightly- sidelined
and the medical infrastructure swings into gear

DGRossetti · 02/12/2020 14:13

@ListeningQuietly

DGR I have my smallpox jab scar and my BCG scar on my arm.

I do not trust this UK government to plug the fridges in
but I do trust the drugs companies to make sure their efforts are not wasted.
This is a situation where the politicians will be - rightly- sidelined
and the medical infrastructure swings into gear

Like I said, it's not the vaccine(s) I have a problem with. I just have zero faith in the government to roll them out so as to be useful beyond preventing Covid. Like rocking up to another country and have them saying "We don't recognise that system".

If I had been project managing this, I would already have that in place by now. Because regardless of the availability of a vaccine, the mechanism for rolling it out would be broadly the same. The total lack of any effort by the government (presumably cronies are a finite resource ?) tells it's own tale.

(Never had a smallpox jab. And managed to duck my BCG test so that they missed me completely.)

FatCatThinCat · 02/12/2020 14:49

Bloody hell, the utter delusional bollocks this government keep spouting is scary. Alok Sharma just tweeted:

The UK was the first country to sign a deal with Pfizer/BioNTech - now we will be the first to deploy their vaccine

To everyone involved in this breakthrough: thank you

In years to come, we will remember this moment as the day the UK led humanity’s charge against this disease

Whenwillow · 02/12/2020 14:51

Why do our govt have to be so fecking competitive about everything?