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Westminstenders: Pah International Law. Who needs it?

978 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2020 18:09

I mean its not as if trade deals and human rights are relevant is it?

(sorry eating my dinner so must be brief)

OP posts:
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69
DGRossetti · 17/09/2020 14:04

@ListeningQuietly

DGR Re Barbados and Jamaica The Tory party's handling of the Windrush folks cut that silken cord for ever. None of the Commonwealth countries trust the UK not to put people on planes to countries they do not know, with no money. When Gammon's say don't you know who we are the reply seems now to be all too well Sad
My recollection of Brexit was that it was supposed to leverage the Commonwealth to fill the gap left by the EU ?

Or did I make that up ? I bet if we were to ask a seasoned bullshitter Brexiteer like Clav they'd put us straight Hmm

quiteathome · 17/09/2020 14:09

I have vague recollections of them talking about the Commonwealth as trading partners.

ListeningQuietly · 17/09/2020 14:12

Just in case anybody wonders WHY the Jamaicans are rather unenamoured of Ms Patel
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51443195
and Sajid Javid
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48585147

DGRossetti · 17/09/2020 14:14

@quiteathome

I have vague recollections of them talking about the Commonwealth as trading partners.
I was being slightly disingenuous. I damn well know they said the Commonwealth was going to make up for the EU trade.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/691826/Brexit-what-mean-for-Commonwealth-Britain-leaves-EU-impact-new-trade-deals-migration

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12193101/Brexit-will-allow-Britain-to-embrace-the-Commonwealth.html

Now I'll get ahead of the c'n'p bus by stating that whether or not the Queen is head of state should have no bearing on Commonwealth countries trading with the UK, but it's a curious dichotomy.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2020 14:16

Apropos of that, reggae fans might like:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000m7ht

DGRossetti · 17/09/2020 14:30

This FT column absolutely nails it on why the Union is finished

BORIS Johnson is staking his claim to be the most successful recruiting officer Scottish independence campaigners have ever known.

Whenever the Prime Minister opens his mouth to speak about our country, he hammers another nail in the Union’s coffin.

But the Tory leader is just representative of English politician’s delusion about Scotland – just look at Keir Starmer.

It is refreshing, then, to see someone at Westminster who really understands what’s going on up here.

Financial Times associate editor Philip Stephens has shown just that in a searing critique of Johnson.

It was even shared by First Minister Nicola Sturgeon.

60b1f9a7-98d6-43e8-af8d-fdfdb4e747ef.jpg

He points out that the Internal Market Bill, which will trample over devolution and break international law, is pushing the UK to breaking point. “By asserting unassailable English supremacy,

the prime minister is inviting Scotland to leave the union,” he writes.

He condemns the PM’s “ignorant” assertion earlier this year that there is “no such thing” as a Scotland/England Border – a line parroted by Scottish Tories. “Scotland did not give up its border or its nationhood

— nor its distinct legal and educational systems” in the 1707 Act of Union, Stephens notes.

He continues: “The union was about collaboration abroad. Scotland secured access to the emerging British empire, and England to talented entrepreneurs, engineers and administrators. With empire long gone,

Brexit has put an end to any notion of a joint enterprise beyond British shores. Instead, Scotland is presented with a choice: if it sticks with England, it cuts itself off from Europe.

The referendum vote to leave the EU was bad enough. The threat to defy international law on the way to a no-deal Brexit risks leaving Scotland isolated on the edge of its own continent.”

The UK Government’s “shambolic bluster” during the pandemic is contrasted with the Scottish Government’s “cautious, open” approach. Tory ministers are also criticised for planning a power grab as part of the internal market legislation.

“There is no reason why the other nations of the union should be barred a say in negotiating trade deals and the setting of standards,” Stephens writes, “or that UK-wide norms must exclude a measure of national discretion.

But no, English MPs at Westminster will decide what Scotland eats.”

On independence, the FT editor says Johnson has backed himself into a corner. Either he will try to block independence, even if the SNP win a majority at next year’s election, or will bombard Scottish voters

with claims about Holyrood’s fiscal reliance on Westminster.

“Both approaches serve the nationalists,” Stephens asserts. “The first by legitimising the SNP charge that England is locking Scotland into a state of vassalage; the second by displaying a condescending

contempt calculated to energise nationalists. Of course, independence would bring severe economic challenges. But if there was a lesson from the Brexit vote in 2016 it was that identity trumps economics.”

He concludes: “Break-up may not be preordained, but none looks so determined as Mr Johnson to force Scotland’s hand.”

Westminstenders: Pah International Law. Who needs it?
DGRossetti · 17/09/2020 14:35

Lesley Riddoch: Richard Keen's gone, but what happens next is what really counts

DOES any Scots lawyer care so little for their reputation that they’ll step forward to replace Lord Keen as Advocate General for Scotland?

I hope not.

It was only a matter of time before this high-ranking legal adviser (and former chairman of the Scottish Conservative Party) resigned. You can be the lackey of a government

brazenly preparing to break international law – or you can be a lawyer. You cannae be both.

It took longer for that penny to drop with Richard Keen than Sir Jonathan Jones, permanent secretary of the British Government’s Legal Department who quit last week.

But once Northern Ireland Secretary Brandon Lewis clarified that he spoke for the British Government when he warned the new Internal Market Bill might “break international law

in a specific and limited way,” Richard Keen’s resignation was inevitable. Boris Johnson tried to keep him in post.

But with Labour’s shadow attorney general Charlie Falconer and the SNP’s Joanna Cherry attacking his position as untenable, it seemed inconceivable that he could be persuaded to stay,

unless perhaps the Government were to allow MPs a final vote on overriding the EU Withdrawal Bill. Even then, his Lordship’s reputation in Scottish legal circles would have been trashed.

It may seem surprising that Boris was busting a gut to keep a Scots legal adviser few voters will recognise. But it’s what flows from Lord Keen’s resignation that matters.

The Number 10 plan to break international law doesn’t involve some abstruse, arcane bit of policy. No, it involves the daddy of them all – the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020.

You remember – the legislation that formalised Boris’s “negotiating triumph”, became the centre-piece of his manifesto and the reason he won a landslide victory in the December 2019 election.

It’s his own deal he’s breaking.

Clearly, Boris thinks he can return a jacket to M&S with the label cut off and crab-meat on the cuffs, cos Dominic thinks it disnae suit him. That may have seemed like admirable chutzpah once.

Now it just looks dangerously wrong. Whether he disowns it or not, the Withdrawal Agreement is still the lynchpin of Johnson’s wobbly premiership and he needs the hard-won consensus around

it to stay in place, as the good ship Britannia sways and tilts in the murky waters of No-Deal Brexit under his hesitant command.

Instead, his lieutenants are suddenly falling like bewigged dominoes. Jones has managed to unsettle Keen and if the former attorney general Geoffrey Cox keeps bellowing and Sajid Javid keeps whining,

they might yet rattle Attorney General Suella Braverman and Solicitor General Michael Ellis. To lose one law lord might be regarded as a misfortune. To lose four plus the support of two former

Conservative attorneys general, five former prime ministers – and let’s not forget that partridge in the pear tree – looks like sheer wanton carelessness.

Still, it’s one thing to flout the law if you are Boris – the man who may wind up as the shortest-serving Prime Minister in recent centuries.

It’s entirely another to be a lawyer.

As Joanna Cherry MP and QC observed yesterday, “I imagine the UK Government will find it hard to find any member of the Scottish Bar to replace Lord Keen as Advocate General as long as the Tories

are intent on breaking international law”. Wouldn’t it be a fabulous statement about the professionalism of the Scots legal profession if they resisted temptation and forced the post to be left vacant or

filled by a suitably pliant, biddable, buyable someone from the ranks of the English legal profession or the House of Lords?

Someone like Baroness Davidson perhaps?

Holding the line and resisting personal preferment would be a great symbolic statement by members of the Scottish Bar.

Sic a parcel of rogues in another nation. Sic a group of unlikely role models in our own.

AND such a boost to our national confidence would be well-timed, because clearly the British Government’s willingness to break international agreements has ramifications far beyond Brexit

and peace in Northern Ireland – serious though these issues are.

George Peretz QC tweeted the day after Brandon Lewis’s “specific and limited” revelation: “It is hard to think of a better argument for Scottish independence that a UK Government prepared

to use Westminster’s unconstrained sovereignty to override a binding treaty commitment it entered into less than 12 months ago. What price any commitments or statutory promises on

devolution now? I say this as someone who would regard the breakup of the Union as a tragedy.”

That is an extraordinary and generous observation from a leading English QC and self-described Unionist. George is clearly a fair-minded man, whose faith in the bona fides of this British Government

has been shattered. That faith went long ago for Yes voters who witnessed the failure of multiple commitments by Prime Ministers and leaders of the opposition since September 18, 2014.

Like the bit when Gordon Brown promised Scots a deal as close as possible to federalism if they voted No – when the Vow signatories promised “extensive new powers” for Holyrood and David Cameron

promised we’d remain in the European Union. All we got was the power to mitigate some of the cruellest benefit “reforms” in history and English Votes for English Laws.

So, we don’t need more lessons. Scots already have undelivered commitments on devolution aplenty – albeit nothing formal or binding. The old Tories weren’t brazen enough to make formal,

written agreements they knew they would break. The new Tories don’t care.

I should thank Boris Johnson for his contribution at PMQs yesterday, when he demonstrated all this publicly and powerfully.

In response to a question from Ian Blackford, Boris insisted that the Scottish people had the opportunity to vote for increased powers in the 2014 indyref but had rejected this option.

That’s not how most folk here saw it. They saw an opinion poll lead for Yes turn into a win for No, after leaders of the Unionist parties promised an expansion of devolved powers.

So much for that, then. Clearly, the Vow wasn’t worth the paper it wasn’t written on. What a very bad time, then, for Reform Scotland founder and Devo Plus backer Ben Thomson to argue that

“a second referendum on Scottish independence would be poorer without an alternative to leaving the UK or the status quo”.

Ben believes that most Scots back home rule which can be achieved without formal independence by more powerful devolution. A very long time ago, I probably thought the same. No more.

Sorry Ben.

Home rule now MEANS independence.

Events at Westminster over the last seven days demonstrate how quickly an agreement drawn up by the British Government can be cast aside when the going gets rough.

Experience in Scotland since 2014 demonstrates how easily devolution is undermined and how completely promises of federal-style arrangements are forgotten and re-written by Labour.

We’ve learned.

Anything short of full constitutional sovereignty for Scotland is not home rule.

OchonAgusOchonO · 17/09/2020 15:32

BORIS Johnson is staking his claim to be the most successful recruiting officer Scottish independence campaigners have ever known.

Following the footsteps of Margaret Thatcher whose handling of the hunger strikes made the most effective recruitment agent the PIRA ever had. You'd think they'd learn.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2020 16:22

NewsThump@newsthump

NEWS!
Government advisors baffled as Boris Johnson’s pants keep catching fire

Westminstenders: Pah International Law. Who needs it?
Songsofexperience · 17/09/2020 16:24

Ironic that the one country always the most keen on leaving the EU, or at least always half-in half-out, really is the one that can afford it least. I don't think there'd be such constitutional havoc in France or Germany (for instance) should they decide to leave the EU. Economic destruction certainly, it would be mightily stupid- but the states themselves wouldn't be threatened to the extent the UK is.

Pepperwort · 17/09/2020 17:33

@Songsofexperience

All so depressing and dystopian. Just wondering what this government will do if Biden wins the US election. How can they be so confident Trump will be re-elected?
I’ve heard that Trump is trying his best to rig the postal vote. We’ve seen poor black voters be disenfranchised before. Even the last election had Clinton win a popular majority. I do not know the US system well but I’m not seeing the distinction between it and Belarus, for instance, that they claim for themselves.
mrslaughan · 17/09/2020 18:07

Interesting quick poll on Twitter..... if your on. Feel free to answer!

twitter.com/thebigcons/status/1306506753417281537?s=21

mrslaughan · 17/09/2020 18:13

Sorry - hubby just telling me I have been played 🤦‍♀️- as you were....

ListeningQuietly · 17/09/2020 19:16

The news is just getting silly now

Westminstenders: Pah International Law. Who needs it?
BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2020 19:28

@Songsofexperience

Ironic that the one country always the most keen on leaving the EU, or at least always half-in half-out, really is the one that can afford it least. I don't think there'd be such constitutional havoc in France or Germany (for instance) should they decide to leave the EU. Economic destruction certainly, it would be mightily stupid- but the states themselves wouldn't be threatened to the extent the UK is.
.... All countries have economies massively dependent on the Single Market - which is why noone will risk damaging it to dig the UK out if its hole They also depend on the EU FTAs with 70 other countries and all need EU agencies like EURATOM

All their governments and opposition parties realise this - Brexit was a reality check for some previously ignorant far right & far left fringes.

However, no current member has held on to a bit of another member's country and made a treaty promising a lot of rights and actions for it.

Without NI, the UK would still have the economic & agencies' disaster, but wouldn't be trying to square a circle

All because back when there was a British Empire, GB used its might & threats of wreaking carnage to hang onto part of its conquest,
instead of accepting the Irish choice of independence

RedToothBrush · 17/09/2020 19:50

WELLL>>>>

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
Ireland’s health service boss @paulreiddublin told briefing today
- “v senior officials in NHS” contacted him to see if Ireland “could help” UK with COVID lab tests

- & said UK’s test & trace system in “almost collapse”, “shutting down swabbing centres” via @colmomongain

OP posts:
HoneysuckIejasmine · 17/09/2020 19:56

For actual fucks sake.

What worries me is will people remember this by the best election, or will they have been gaslit in to some alternative narrative by then?

HoneysuckIejasmine · 17/09/2020 19:56

next election

FatCatThinCat · 17/09/2020 20:20

Have you seen this? The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor has already been found guilty of professional misconduct and bringing the legal profession into disrepute.

yorkshirebylines.co.uk/undermining-the-rule-of-law-buckland-begum-and-my-son/?fbclid=IwAR0zmQo-iPzVxzbqNJnafCdLhTI_CnZ2eoYnQxD-BDJJZNRyyFpY0sjWEIU

mrslaughan · 17/09/2020 20:58

Fatcat - I saw mention that she has re-written to the bar , but there was not as much detail in her letter, as in this article. It's truly shocking.
Having had a son badly bullied - I feel her frustration- fortunately he was never as severely physically harmed. It does however make me feel sick when someone who purports to want to help then works to protect the adults who failed the children.

Jason118 · 17/09/2020 21:35

Not sure how long it will take me to pick this apart, but at least it's a response

Dear Mr xxxxxxx

Thank you for contacting me about the Internal Market Bill.

There has been much speculation about our treaty obligations and international law, and I’m afraid that some of the commentary seems to have misrepresented the situation. It goes without saying that the Government and I are fully committed to the rule of law as determined by a democratically elected Parliament.

We left the EU in January with a Withdrawal Agreement that was negotiated in good faith to work in the interests of every part of our United Kingdom and of our EU friends and neighbours. That Withdrawal Agreement in turn established the Joint Committee which was designed to allow EU/UK further opportunities to provide clarity and definition around the treaty by defining such specific issues as what are ‘goods at risk’ as well as how documentation would work in practice between GB and N Ireland.

With regards to the provisions on the Northern Ireland Protocol, it is the case that the Protocol contains a number of issues that the UK and EU both have a legally binding agreement to resolve by the end of the year. The end of the Transition Period is now fast approaching, and with no agreement yet reached, the Government has proposed this Bill as a safety net to protect the Union and ensure that the UK’s obligations under the Belfast Good Friday Agreement are met. We must deliver on our promises to the people of Northern Ireland and this Bill allows us to do so.

I have recently been part of Cabinet sub-committee meetings that have discussed some of the EU’s negotiating approach, and from this I have concerns that the European Commission has not acted in good faith at all times, in spite of the commitment in the treaty to do so. I’m very disappointed that this is the case, but the Commission has sought to require us, as a departed member state, to continue to abide by their rules - this is totally unacceptable. What we want to see is a free trade deal that works for us and our EU neighbours as friendly equals. We don’t ask for any measures the EU has not already provided to countries such as Canada. Sadly, progress is impossible whilst the Commission continues to resist the UK’s independence.

Therefore, I supported the Second Reading of the Internal Market Bill. The United Kingdom government must always be able to say that we have acted with integrity in the interests of our nation, that we are protecting the Belfast Good Friday Agreement and that we are giving the essential clarity and certainty to businesses that they desperately need.

It is important to understand that it is not new for Parliament to consider legislation that could override treaty obligations. The UK’s constitutional settlement provides for Parliament alone to decide whether and how to implement the UK’s treaty obligations. You may remember that this principle was upheld by the Supreme Court in the Miller Case over the Government invoking Article 50 in 2017.

Remedying the unintended consequences of the Protocol may breach the Withdrawal Agreement in a limited way but the consequences of inaction could break up the UK. I hope you understand that while I remain fully committed to international law, I have a duty to protect the integrity of the Union – the overriding purpose of this Bill.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.

With best wishes,

borntobequiet · 17/09/2020 21:39

My MP has given up and posts generic responses on her website
www.harriettbaldwin.com/faqs-7#internal_market
Bloody annoying as you know she hasn’t bothered to read past the first communication on any subject.

OchonAgusOchonO · 17/09/2020 21:41

@Jason118 - Remedying the unintended consequences of the Protocol may breach the Withdrawal Agreement in a limited way but the consequences of inaction could break up the UK.

Whereas the consequences of implementing this bill will, not than likely, break up the UK.

Does he actually believe this drivel, I wonder?

OchonAgusOchonO · 17/09/2020 21:42

more than likely, not not than likely

Jason118 · 17/09/2020 21:42

@OchonAgusOchonO she

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