Westminstenders: Run Forrest Run

[RedToothBrush]

Need i say more?

they could talk positively about the point when we are able to retake fuller control of our own lawmaking
they could talk positively about the new trade opportunities we can build with the rest of the world from our new position

In other words they could spout government propaganda.

These two talking points are in direct contradiction btw. All free trade deals entail the loss of some sovereignty.

I can't believe we are still discussing this sort of utter reality-divorced nonsense.

they could talk positively about the point when we are able to retake fuller control of our own lawmaking
Example please
they could talk positively about the new trade opportunities we can build with the rest of the world from our new position
Which countries does the UK not trade with while in the EU?
they could talk positively about the forthcoming end of EU free movement
Ah yes, replacing poles with Syrians to clean care homes
they could talk positively about increased availability of goods from other parts of the world and consequently lowered prices
BY REDUCING STANDARDS
they could talk positively about the ending of absurdities like the EU working time directive
Ah yes, allowing bosses to screw over workers
which was of course the true aim of the Brexiteers all the time

I don't want the BBC to become an instrument of Govt propaganda, it is vitally important that it doesn't.

I do want the BBC to be more fully representative of those who pay for it. Legitimately critising a government is a vital function of the media.

Having absolutely nothing positive to say either about a government that at the last count enjoyed the popular support of 14m Britons, nor about the country being governed, begins to look like bias to me.

BigChocFrenzy
You forgot to express any compassion in your post at 13:05 - I've already had a ticking off for that.

There are so far 23 deaths [Germany health workers] which would be average for the working age range wrt the total deaths in the country.

The figures for the UK include deaths connected to social care ("540, including 260 social care workers") - there is a similar category in the rki Germany link - which sadly includes a further 39 deaths, total 62.

Well Louise, let's just pick some

What would you say was the positive of ending of Freedom of Movement from Europe? If we make it difficult for EU health care professionals to come here, but we as yet have no significant plans to increase training our own staff, where do you want us to import staff from?

What are the positives of lowered prices of goods, on say, food? Food prices are relatively cheap in this country. Do you mind if the quality is reduced as long as the price is as low as possible?

What about clothing? What about the clothes we import from Bangladesh - they are already cheap. Do you want them to be given away?

Why is the working time directive absurd? Do you think it's good that people can be forced to work for hours without a break? A lorry driver for example - will you be happy if he falls asleep at the wheel, or would you rather that he had an enforced rest?

I am sorry but I think you are spouting Brexeter claptrap. After more than 4 years the benefits if they are there should be obvious. We hold all the cards, remember, they need us more than we need them.

I do want the BBC to be more fully representative of those who pay for it.

A number that appears to be dwindling rapidly ....

Having absolutely nothing positive to say either about a government that at the last count enjoyed the popular support of 14m Britons, nor about the country being governed, begins to look like bias to me.

A week is a long time in politics ...

I wonder what your vision of a German version of the BBC in 1945 would have been. Presumably telling Germany all about the exciting opportunities in the new open spaces in the cities ?

they could talk positively about the point when we are able to retake fuller control of our own lawmaking
Example please

We'll see, when post transition the first legal cases that under EU membership would have progressed to the final decision point of the the European Court of Justice are instead decided by the UK Supreme Court. That is a positive for me, that litigants will have no recourse to justice beyond our own court system.

We will never know what happened to the IX legion.

We will never know exactly what happened to the Marie Celeste

And we will never know exactly what the benefits of Brexit were (not are, were. We have left the EU, so where are they ?).

It's the quantum state of political delusion, capable of being all things to all people as long as you don't ever examine it, and collapse the wave function. Because then, inevitably, it turns to shit.

We'll see, when post transition the first legal cases that under EU membership would have progressed to the final decision point of the the European Court of Justice are instead decided by the UK Supreme Court. That is a positive for me, that litigants will have no recourse to justice beyond our own court system.

I mean this most gently, but you do know the UK is still signed up to the ECHR and as a result UK citizens still have recourse to the European Court of Human Rights ?

they could talk positively about the point when we are able to retake fuller control of our own lawmaking
they could talk positively about the new trade opportunities we can build with the rest of the world from our new position

So talk to us about what you want the BBC to say about the contradictions inherent in this position.

Striking new trade deals automatically and inevitably entails some loss of sovereignty (law-making power). The bigger the trade partner the greater the loss of sovereignty - for eg a US deal would likely require the UK to sacrifice some sovereignty over food standards.

I mean this most gently, but you do know

I mean this gently, but the answer is no.

The bigger the trade partner the greater the loss of sovereignty - for eg a US deal would likely require the UK to sacrifice some sovereignty over food standards.

Not a problem the EU had, I notice.

The EU doesn't have a FTA with the US (it has some agreements that facilitate trade but not a "trade deal") and the reason for this is precisely that both are too big. Neither needs a deal enough to make the sort of concessions that would deliver a deal.

That is a positive for me, that litigants will have no recourse to justice beyond our own court system.

Could we take this further - should we also opt out of international courts?

Peregrina
ending of EU free movement means there will be fewer people competing for what i expect to be a reducing number of jobs

I don't want us importing healthcare staff at all unless they have specialist skills that are held by too few UK health professionals. I want us to be training our own.

Lorry drivers are professionals, they should be capable of exercising their judgement about whether they are safe to drive, if they aren't they are in the wrong job. If their judgement is at fault and they cause a serious accident they should go to prison and their driving ability should then be moot because their license should be removed.

European food prices are kept artificially high to support French farmers, simple as. Grow more here, import worldwide at lower cost. So far as quality is concerned, I basically don't care, many can't afford to. Labelling should take care if it anyway, if quality matters to you, buy British, buy organic, if it doesn't (or can't) have a little more money to spare.

Lorry drivers are professionals, they should be capable of exercising their judgement about whether they are safe to drive, if they aren't they are in the wrong job. If their judgement is at fault and they cause a serious accident they should go to prison and their driving ability should then be moot because their license should be removed.

That's a really good idea - let's make it a free-for-all on drivers' hours (because that's what it would be - drivers that weren't willing to do long hours wouldn't get any work), and not do anything until there are RTA fatalities?

Misti
So talk to us about what you want the BBC to say about the contradictions inherent in this position.

Obvious really, "we are making the deal with x nation"; "these are the benefits"; "these are the losses". Point being that Britain's trade reps will be advocating for our nations interests, not juggling the competing priorities of others they represent, to our detriment.

And do you see the Government making any attempts to train their own health care professionals - they scrapped bursaries for nursing and midwifery students, remember, thus tending to deter mature students. They eventually replaced it with something, but it wasn't as good.

So you put it all on the lorry driver do you, if he doesn't stop when he's tired - not on the employer? Mind you, I think this is an area where the lorry drivers could have more say - not everyone can drive a big lorry and if they chose to stop working there would be precious little many employers could do about it - and the easy option of importing EU drivers would be gone. Just think, they might have to start spending some money to train UK people up.

Labelling - you haven't been following - part of the US trade deal is not to label food so that we don't realise we are eating hormone fed beef and chlorinated chicken. Our food prices are cheap - they are certainly cheaper than in France, so being in the EU didn't stop us before.

Yep Louise - I am really looking forward to being able to buy Tim Tams in Waitrose....

Coming from a country where you know FTA take years to negotiate AND require compromise the Brexiteers ignorance on this unforgivable. I refer you to Winston Peters comment about the UK not being match fit.... he's a wiley old fox who I disagree fundamentally on many things . As an example I give you Liz Truss/Japan and Stilton....

I have to say, this is really interesting.
I hadn't realised quite how striking the paradox is.
People voted in the Tories to ensure Brexit happened so that things could be improved in all sorts of ways.
However the measures needed to carry out those improvements will never be implemented by Tories because they are anathema to almost all members of the party now that it's been culled.

What will be really interesting to observe is whether/when the light dawns on people who voted Tory and are expecting nice trade deals and lots of homegrown crops and HCP.

let's make it a free-for-all on drivers' hours

Let's go a bit further, shall we, let's scrap HGV licences, and let people learn on the job. No matter if they crash and kill someone or wreck someone's property.

Why not go further and scrap all driving licences? That's how it used to be done back in the 1920s and 30s. Drink driving laws - why shouldn't people use their judgement as to whether they are fit to drive?

People voted in the Tories to ensure Brexit happened so that things could be improved in all sorts of ways.

I was reading this morning about the MP for Faversham, Helen Whately - her trees are shading out people's light, and basically she and her husband have told the neighbours (council houses and small private properties ) to f** off. The neighbours are a bit annoyed, because they voted for her.

She was the one who Piers Morgan took to task when she seemed to laugh about care home deaths, and then tried to wriggle her way out it.

Believing liars, and continuing to believe them once they are known liars, causes all sorts of problems. Is it easier to admit you believed a liar, or carry on so you don't have egg on your face and have to adjust your ideas?

Chirac famously said that promises are only binding to those who receive them. Pretty fucking cynical, but at least he was honest about it.

your sketch of a striking paradox is an interesting one Auld I'll give you that. I guess it comes down to how people weigh the possibility of a chance of the outcomes they want to see vs no chance.

FWIW I think I generally agree with your characterisation in suggesting many people won't get what they wanted, but what's new there? What could change is that those in charge will have fewer places to hide away from their failures.

What could change is that those in charge will have fewer places to hide away from their failures.

Bwahahaha.