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Brexit

Westminstenders: Just another DEADline

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/06/2020 10:26

Today is the last scheduled day for talks with the EU.

We have til 30th June to ask for a transition extension. We won't.

That leaves us starring down the barrel of a no deal exit, when we still could be in a covid-19 crisis and the US may be in turmoil given recent events and the coming election...

It's not a pretty picture.

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DGRossetti · 08/06/2020 10:37

DGR, there is a lot of talk of still prosecuting those who took the statue down for criminal damage.

If a jury agrees ...

DGRossetti · 08/06/2020 10:38

So that statue isn't JUST about the slave trade. Its about more than that.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ?

RedToothBrush · 08/06/2020 10:41

DGR, I think part of my feeling is WHY isn't there will amongst the public to support the removal of the statue and why do council move slower than a snail in a competitive slow race?

That comes back to a lack of political engagment with many and a lack of representation. The people running councils are older and very white.

Its relevant.

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SabrinaThwaite · 08/06/2020 10:43

Good read for anyone interested in how and why Colston was selected to be the philanthropic face of Bristol.

www.brh.org.uk/site/articles/myths-within-myths/

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 08/06/2020 10:43

No one has the right to break the law.

Everyone has the duty to defy the law where they consider it unjust and unacceptable.

Defiance of the law requires that you break the law, then demand to be arrested, Gandhi-style, and demand the maximum penalty.

...that's the same Gandhi who said the Indians of Natal did not expect to be treated like 'blanket kaffirs.'

Nobody is Innocent, as Mr Rotten once wisely observed.

thecatfromjapan · 08/06/2020 10:44

Element 💐

Your cat looks wry.

The week in Tory is just depressing when laid out like that.

And it's a sobering reminding that they are the government, with an 80 seat majority, and years to run.

It all reminds me of the Thatcher years, when there was such a disjunction between the government and many of the people I represented by that government.

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 08/06/2020 10:45

And when we get all high and mighty about the law and how no has the right to break it, this does not include Govt Spads, obviously.

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 08/06/2020 10:46

It all reminds me of the Thatcher years

She saw the TV pictures of the riots in Liverpool in 81, and her only observation was, "Those poor shopkeepers."

SabrinaThwaite · 08/06/2020 10:48

there is a lot of talk of still prosecuting those who took the statue down for criminal damage

Surely the answer to that someone “might” have committed an offence but it’s only a “minor breach”.

ListeningQuietly · 08/06/2020 10:51

(((((( Elements )))))))
I am so sorry
and yes, the lack of being able to physically console each other makes it ultra hard.
Love the cat costume Grin

DGRossetti · 08/06/2020 10:52

It all reminds me of the Thatcher years

Westminstenders: Just another DEADline
MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 08/06/2020 10:54

Section 5 of the Criminal Damage Act 1971 says you are not guilty if you have the lawful excuse that the owners of said property, in this case the good burghers of Bristol, consented to your actions.

Worth a punt?

DGRossetti · 08/06/2020 10:56

there is a lot of talk of still prosecuting those who took the statue down for criminal damage

I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't that require the property owner to agree ?

Who owned the statue in the first place ? Was it the council (i.e. public). Or will we discover it's some shadowy corporation ?

Either way, if I were on a jury, the prosecution would have their work cut out ... or to flip the optics, it would be incredibly easy to persuade me that all other avenues of protest were ineffective.

SabrinaThwaite · 08/06/2020 11:01

Who remembers the B-52 Two?

RedToothBrush · 08/06/2020 11:01

From the article linked to above:

Charidy … or something else?
Perhaps one of the most interesting aspects of this whole Victorian charade is the fact that the much vaunted charitable efforts of the Colston Societies were largely superficial. For example, in 1884, the combined contribution of all the Colston related charities made up only 1.5 per cent of the total cost of relieving the poor that year. Not only was the amount collected fairly insignificant, despite all the fanfare, but it was also distributed in a badly organised and arbitrary manner. A report into the condition of the poor in Bristol published in 1885 directly criticised the Colston Societies in stating:

The higher interest of charity will not be served, it appears to the Committee, until… the total sum collected by the three societies is distributed on some general and well-conceived plan.

This kind of criticism of private philanthropy grew in the late nineteenth century as it became clear that the charitable donations provided at the whim of a few rich ‘do-gooders’ could not deal with the widespread, chronic and abject poverty that characterised the Victorian era. However, public displays of charity by business and civic elites had another, perhaps more important, role than merely poor relief. Jordan notes that:

Although the fiscal contribution of the Colston Societies was superficial this should not lead one to understate the importance of philanthropy as ritual in the maintenance of urban power structures.

Thus the ritual and ideological aspects of the ‘cult of Colston’ may have far outweighed the actual practical benefits to the ‘poor’.

The relationships of elite patronage and power that were made explicit in the Victorian celebrations of Colston were to be severely challenged in the late 1880s and 1890s as Bristol entered a period of serious labour unrest. Continuing disenfranchisement, along with more than a decade of economic recession, low wages, bad working conditions and lack of Unionisation, had all hit the Bristolian working class hard. In 1889-90 there was a massive increase in the membership of the new ‘General Unions’, including many women workers. This was paralleled by a devastating strike wave which severely affected several of the leading businesses in the city. However, the business and political elite united, Tory and Liberal alike, to resist the demands of the workers and to use the local state to suppress the strikes and protests. Two years later the bosses went on the offensive against the Unions and another wave of strikes broke out. This led the deployment by the ‘city fathers’ of Cavalry and Police units to break up a mass demonstration of tens of thousands of the strikers and their supporters in December 1892. Many people were injured by the military intervention in what became known locally as ‘Black Friday’

In this environment of open class warfare the relations of patronage and authority, which the business and civic elite had enjoyed in part through the rituals of the ‘cult of Colston’, were being seriously challenged. Bristolian working class leaders were embracing socialism, standing in elections independent of the two main parties and speaking publicly about the formation of a ‘labour party’ to represent working people. The city may have been riven on the basis of class for centuries but now it was explicitly divided in the political arena, an area which had hitherto been dominated by the elite. For some well-to do businessmen and politicians the solution to this problem was to rediscover the heyday of (supposed) civic unity in the 1860s and 1870s predicated on the popularity of the ‘city father’ Edward Colston.

All these things happening and happening now, should be put into context.

WHY now?

Why is it a subject that's resonating so much right now. I don't believe it's because people have suddenly decided that they are against racism. We've had many similar incidents to George Floyd in recent years. Why is this incident the one that's made the difference?

What is it that's going on?

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DGRossetti · 08/06/2020 11:02

Also, unless the footage is very good, how do you single out the responsible ?

Wasn't there a (UK) case a while back where 4 police officers kicked a suspect to death but the judge refused to allow a trial as they couldn't identify the fatal kick ? Mysteriously "joint enterprise" doesn't apply if you are a policeman.

Sauce for the goose, and all ...

(With regard to the defence to criminal damage, didn't some protestors who junked a military jet plane get off as the court held it was a valid action to prevent the plane being used by a foreign power to kill civilians ?)

ListeningQuietly · 08/06/2020 11:06

RTB
Black lives matter / Why now ?
COVID
In the USA the vast bulk of deaths on the Eastern Seaboard have been blacks and latinos.
At the same time Trump is still trying to roll back Obamacare and employment protection and all the things that were trying to improve the rights of the poor.
At the same time he is encouraging racists to infiltrate police forces.
At the same time as the poor have been locked down in cities while the rich head to the Hamptons.

You never know which straw will break the camel's back in advance ....

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 08/06/2020 11:07

Who remembers the B-52 Two?

Kate and Cindy?

DGRossetti · 08/06/2020 11:08

Why is it a subject that's resonating so much right now. I don't believe it's because people have suddenly decided that they are against racism. We've had many similar incidents to George Floyd in recent years. Why is this incident the one that's made the difference? [] What is it that's going on?

If we knew the answer to that ....

Zeitgeist ? Rupert Sheldrakes morphic resonance ? There are angels among us ? Strawberry moon ? 5G ?

We're quite appreciative of the concept of a critical mass in nuclear physics ... and of quorum sensing in organisms. Why not a cultural or social equivalent in human behaviour.

The acid question is at what point does the everyday person feel less threatened by the mob than they do by what the mob is protesting ?

RedToothBrush · 08/06/2020 11:09

The Bristol Mayor has said he doesn't think it's a loss to the city.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-52962356
Edward Colston: Bristol slave trader statue 'was an affront'

A statue of a slave trader which was torn down during an anti-racism protest in Bristol was "an affront", the city's mayor has said.

Marvin Rees said he felt no "sense of loss" after the bronze statue of Edward Colston was pulled down using ropes and thrown into the harbour on Sunday.

And

Bristol's mayor said the statue would be retrieved from the harbour "at some point" and it was likely to end up in a city museum.

"I think circumstances came to a head and people felt need the need to take the statue down," Mr Rees said.

"I can't and won't pretend the statue of a slave trader in a city I was born and grew up in wasn't an affront to me and people like me.

"People in Bristol who don't want that statue in the middle of the city came together and it is my job to unite, hear those voices and hold those truths together for people for who that statue is a personal affront."

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SabrinaThwaite · 08/06/2020 11:13

The B-52 Two:
amp.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/23/iraq.iraq?__twitter_impression=true

RedToothBrush · 08/06/2020 11:14

You Gov @yougov
^The UK government now has the joint-lowest approval rating worldwide for how they have managed coronavirus

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Westminstenders: Just another DEADline
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SabrinaThwaite · 08/06/2020 11:16

Great statement by the Bristol police commander - “no regrets”.

twitter.com/darrenpjones/status/1269716714150862850?s=21

Peregrina · 08/06/2020 11:17

WHY now?

In part, pent up frustration from lockdown and part from the recent heat.
Also we have a Government who have shown by their actions that they believe that the rules they have made don't apply to them.

We used to hear a lot about the Will of the People on these threads. What was that if it wasn't the Will of the People/

GhostofFrankGrimes · 08/06/2020 11:19

Bristol Mayor basically giving the response Starmer should have.