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Brexit

Westministenders: The Truth Isn't A Made Up Concept

994 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2020 16:46

“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

Not George Orwell but often attributed to him. But a powerful statement with resonance nonetheless

OP posts:
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Songsofexperience · 02/06/2020 09:53

Redundancies spreading on my street by the way. I was first but neighbours on both sides now affected too. It's going to be a tough autumn.

JeSuisPoulet · 02/06/2020 10:03

Hope you are OK @Songs - I was thinking of you a couple of days ago and wondering how you were doing.

Looks like Cumming's distraction technique has worked as he is off the front pages...for today at least www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jun/02/ai-firm-that-worked-with-vote-leave-wins-new-coronavirus-contract

Peregrina · 02/06/2020 10:34

My only hope with that JeSuisPoulet, is that everything the Govt has done with corona virus is tainted with incompetence, so that AI firm might well find that they damage any reputation they have.

DGRossetti · 02/06/2020 10:35

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Westministenders: The Truth Isn't A Made Up Concept
squid4 · 02/06/2020 10:47

@JeSuisPoulet yes have given blood it was fine and well managed, counts as an essential trip, please continue to give blood if you are eligible to

A&E is busy again.

HoneysuckIejasmine · 02/06/2020 10:55

I've been to a specialist clinic twice this last week for scans and treatment. All staff in PPE, waiting room all socially distanced. I felt very safe, just sorry for the staff in sweaty PPE in this weather. Luckily they had lots of fans around to keep air moving so that will have provided some relief.

squid4 · 02/06/2020 10:57

omg yes it is SO HOT. and everything steams up if I get stressed...

DGRossetti · 02/06/2020 12:15

statisticsauthority.gov.uk

Sir David Norgrove response to Matt Hancock regarding the
Government’s COVID-19 testing data

5-6 minutes

Dear Secretary of State,

Thank you for your letter of 27 May, in which you described some welcome, though limited, additions to the official data on COVID-19 tests, including a proposed note on methods (not yet published at the time of writing). I am afraid though that the figures are still far from complete and comprehensible.

Statistics on testing perhaps serve two main purposes.

The first is to help us understand the epidemic, alongside the ONS survey, showing us how many people are infected, or not, and their relevant characteristics.

The second purpose is to help manage the test programme, to ensure there are enough tests, that they are carried out or sent where they are needed and that they are being used as effectively as possible. The data should tell the public how effectively the testing programme is being managed.

The way the data are analysed and presented currently gives them limited value for the first purpose. The aim seems to be to show the largest possible number of tests, even at the expense of understanding. It is also hard to believe the statistics work to support the testing programme itself. The statistics and analysis serve neither purpose well.

To mention just a few issues in relation to the data as currently presented:

the headline total of tests adds together tests carried out with tests posted out. This distinction is too often elided during the presentation at the daily press conference, where the relevant figure may misleadingly be described simply as the number of tests carried out. There are no data on how many of the tests posted out are in fact then successfully completed. The slides used in the daily press conference do not show the date when the tests were carried out;
the notes to the daily slides rightly say that some people may be tested more than once and it has been widely reported that swabs carried out simultaneously on a single patient are counted as multiple tests. But it is not clear from the published data how often that is the case. Figures for the overall number of people being tested have previously been published but are not available in the published time series;
the top summary presents the number of positive results from diagnostic tests (pillars 1 and 2) alongside the total number of tests across all pillars. This presentation gives an artificially low impression of the proportion of tests returning a positive diagnosis;
more generally the testing figures are presented in a way that is difficult to understand. Many of the key numbers make little sense without recourse to the technical notes which are themselves sometimes hard to follow. This includes the supporting spreadsheets, which, while welcome, make it difficult to extract even basic trends.

With regard to new data that are not currently made available:

test results should include for example key types of employment (e.g. medical staff, care staff), age, sex and location (by geography and place, such as care homes). How many people in what circumstances are infected? Where do they live?
for Test and Trace it is important that a statement of the key metrics to measure its success should be developed systematically, and published, to avoid the situation that has arisen in relation to the testing programme. The statistics will need to be capable of being related to the wider testing data and readily understood by the public, through for example population adjusted maps of hotspots.

I warmly welcome of course your support for the Code of Practice for Statistics. But the testing statistics still fall well short of its expectations. It is not surprising that given their inadequacy data on testing are so widely criticised and often mistrusted.

I also welcome the Department’s willingness to work with colleagues from the Office for Statistics Regulation (OSR) and I know they have been in touch to discuss how the data and their presentation could be improved and gaps addressed. OSR will be happy to help further in any way they can.

It would be useful to develop a published timetable for the changes that need to be made and for the development of the metrics for the vital new programme of Test and Trace.

I do understand the pressures that those concerned have faced and still face. But I am sure you would agree that good evidence, trusted by the public, is essential to success in containing the virus.

Yours sincerely,

Sir David Norgrove

Peregrina · 02/06/2020 12:19

Why aren't the Brexiters screaming about the lack of democracy for MPs being exhibited by Rees-Mogg? Even well known leftie, i.e. Tory MPs who don't agree with him, are protesting.

DGRossetti · 02/06/2020 12:24

Why aren't the Brexiters screaming about the lack of democracy for MPs being exhibited by Rees-Mogg?

Because they're pretty dense at the best of times. Bearing in mind most of the public think Brexit is history now. All done, so move on.

The growing horror show that is the US is also drawing oxygen from the flames of publicity. If anything, Brexiters should be asking "is this a country we can - or want to - do business with ?". And yes, that was supposed to resonate ...

mrslaughan · 02/06/2020 12:25

Because it's only their version of democracy that counts...

mrslaughan · 02/06/2020 12:34

So everyone was expecting clarification on the Mary Wakefield article - but this is about furloughing staff....... were they expecting to get some grief? Is it preemptive.......

ICouldHaveBeenAContender · 02/06/2020 12:53

Re Brexit. I wish more people appreciated the difference between UK having the status of "a third country" and "a third-world country". An important distinction.

prettybird · 02/06/2020 13:00

I do too IcouldhavebeenaContender Hmm

I have a suspicion that many Brexiters have such antipathy towards the fact that we are now a "third country" as far as the EU is concerned - and that that is what they (the Brexiters) wanted Confused - is because their minds conflate the term with being a third world country, which of course we are not Confused

ListeningQuietly · 02/06/2020 13:04

AAAAAGGHHHH
I have just been in my first real traffic jam since March.
9 miles of stop start.
One car on its roof, the other facing the wrong way when I crawled past.

Too many people driving like idiots.
People stopping for a wee at the side of the motorway
MULTIPLE broken down cars even before the jam.

Lockdown is over
Pollution is back
and yes, my car pollutes but I'm tight so drive VERY gently

Pepperwort · 02/06/2020 13:14

I'm not quite sure if the third country / third world comments are in response to me if not. Apologies if it's nothing to do with me, but just in case - I know the difference, and I'm not a Brexiteer although a confidence about huge insurmountable differences between Britain and the third world betrays luxurious origins I don't share imo. I was responding to BigChoc talking about the future being tied to a US FTA and penalties from it whether we like it or not. I post late every so often because that's when I have time to mess about on the internet. Sometimes playing late is a problem as my brain shuts down. Actually it can do that any time of day Smile.

prettybird · 02/06/2020 13:27

No it wasn't Pepperwort - it was a general comment from my perspective. As illustrated by David Frost's comments and certain intermittent visitors to these threads, complaining that the EU is continuing to insist on treating us as a 3rd country as if this was somehow a bad thing despite being precisely what they wanted Confused

DGRossetti · 02/06/2020 13:30

I wonder if current events in the US are going to put a crimp in the plans to snuggle ever closer ?

This is getting too much like "Airplane" now.

Looks like we picked the wrong year to go for a US deal ....

ListeningQuietly · 02/06/2020 13:32

DGR
Just have to hold out till November 4th .....

UltimateFoole · 02/06/2020 13:48

Can any Westminstenders who live abroad tell us what is happening about votes in their parliaments. Are they still doing remote voting or are they just in buildings which more easily allow for social distancing, or...?

ListeningQuietly · 02/06/2020 13:53

Ultimate
Most legislatures have the common sense to have electronic voting systems
so delegates press a button from their seats/offices and votes are done in no time.
The UK is ridiculous in persisting with the division / lobby system.

DGRossetti · 02/06/2020 13:57

The UK is ridiculous in persisting with the division / lobby system.

I disagree ... I don't trust electronic systems. Not despite having a BSc (Hons) in Computer and Communication Systems, but because etc etc ...

The only concession I would make, is that it's easier to audit 650 votes than 40,000,000.

The UK parliament is already pissing away it's claims to legitimacy anyway. Maybe we will finally get our first revolution ?

ListeningQuietly · 02/06/2020 14:00

DGR
Paper ballots into a box that was passed along would be easier than the rubbish of the lobbies ...
And I do not share your scepticism of live electronic voting - remember that in Parliament all votes are public so they each get a button (like in the EU or Holyrood) and as soon as the vote closes all names appear.
Simple, transparent, quick, no need for dragging MPs in from hospitals.

DGRossetti · 02/06/2020 14:03

Well worth a watch - too true ...

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