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Brexit

Westministenders: The Truth Isn't A Made Up Concept

994 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2020 16:46

“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

Not George Orwell but often attributed to him. But a powerful statement with resonance nonetheless

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squid4 · 29/05/2020 17:57

I fear we are just so, so, so far behind where we need to be with contact tracing, AND our case numbers are absolute huge.

I can't see how it can remotely work like it did in say South Korea.

Have a read of this study, I think it illustrates some of complexities and hard work involved:
blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/05/29/sheffield-community-contact-tracers-training-community-volunteers-to-undertake-contact-tracing-for-covid-19/

OldLace · 29/05/2020 18:17

DGRossetti

Yes, that is a more positive way of looking at it, thank you!
(not sure how this new 'quote' thingy works)

TheMShip · 29/05/2020 18:25

squid that was a really interesting article on contact tracing. It seems that a big obstacle will be compelling contacts to comply with self isolation and employers to divulge contact details. There will need to be govt support for salaries of those isolating and unable to work if they cannot WFH.

Peregrina · 29/05/2020 18:30

squid - the Sheffield systems sounds as though it's basically the right approach but lacking because it was a voluntary effort. Now if that was rolled out nationally within a proper legal framework, we would have a good chance of getting on top of the virus.

As it is, we have promises of a half cock system which probably won't work. We also no longer really know what we are supposed to be doing.

ListeningQuietly · 29/05/2020 19:03

contender
THe tracker in my kids' car is so accurate that the insurer could tell me what time the car was broken into as the movement sensor notified them [wow]

oldlace
If your MP does not reply, send again, copying in the speaker Wink

squid
The track and trace system in the UK is designed to fail
The rules have been designed to create non compliance
as Dom the Darwinist wants people to pass it on.

DGRossetti · 29/05/2020 19:07

(not sure how this new 'quote' thingy works)

Badly.

AuldAlliance · 29/05/2020 19:18

Not a global laughing stock at all, oh no...
www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/29/dominic-cummings-cutout-appears-at-rugby-league-match-in-sydney-australia

Nquartz · 29/05/2020 19:19

I (finally) got a reply from my MP (Tory) after copying the speaker.

Bit of copy & pasted stuff, didn't agree with all of his actions but she focussed on the (alleged) threats of violence which I've not seen before.

FrankieStein402 · 29/05/2020 19:23

Singasonga - I respectfully disagree

That team failed because they focused on overdesigning the easy stuff - standardising the ui across government was useful, visible and could demonstrate early success but not actually that important (Even in the ui the vital access/authentication component collapsed into a virtually useless delivery because of departmental politics and changing mandates.)

Apart from hmrc the important systems that actually provide value to the country are legacy where the expertise was lost in outsourcing and complexity has multiplied exponentially to handle decades of ministerial rule changes.

The legacy components are upto 30 years old, some are exceptionally well designed - but adding to the problem is now the humongous charges made by the hardware suppliers to keep out of support kit running. No-one now understands the rules that they execute.

The lack of systems engineering expertise in govt means that the necessary expensive reverse engineering or total rewrite will not be countenanced because there are no short term wins for the minister to trumpet (or to be fair for the project lead to report as 'success' at the budget round)

The umpteen hundreds of millions spent in the reform of the moj systems are a classic example - they avoided leveraging gds assets or commercial systems on the basis of agile teams preferring to invent their own solutions and ended up with a bunch of front ends, leaving untouched the (costly) backends which were the driver of the programme in the first place.

Presumably when pension payments stop something might be done.

OldLace · 29/05/2020 19:24

@ListeningQuietly

good idea re Speaker, thanks!

Sadly, I think you are 100% correct about the trace 'n' trace system

ListeningQuietly · 29/05/2020 19:33

I was talking to a colleague today.
His mum died of cancer near the start of Lockdown.
She had saved since being widowed for a funeral and procession and wake
that would have involved the whole of her extended family from Ireland and England.
He had to give a eulogy in an empty crematorium to 6 people with his siblings and cousins watching on line.
He is angry because he could not fulfil her wishes.
He is sad because he cannot hug his siblings

At least his tory MP had the courtesy to accept his anger
but she has so far not stuck her head above the parapet.

But Cummings goes to Durham whenever he wants

BestIsWest · 29/05/2020 19:46

FrankieStein, I concur.

RedToothBrush · 29/05/2020 20:20

'Science-led'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52849691
Coronavirus: Relaxing lockdown 'risky' and 'political decision'

Relaxing lockdown is a risk because levels of the coronavirus are still at "very high" levels, one of the government's top science advisers says.

Prof John Edmunds said it was a "political decision" to lift lockdown and that "many" scientists would wait.

The warning comes as Sage, the scientists advising government, publish details of their confidential meetings.

One meeting on 23 April estimated there would be only 1,000 cases per day by mid-May.

Instead, estimates by the Office for National Statistics suggest there are currently 8,000 cases per day in England alone. Those figures don't include cases in care homes or hospitals

"Many of us would prefer to see the incidence down to lower levels before we relax measures," Prof Edmunds, from the London School of Tropical Hygiene and Medicine, said.

Newly-published Sage documents also warned of the dangers of having high numbers of cases.

They say this would "give little time to re-impose more stringent measures" if the infection rate (the R-number) started to increase.

And

The documents also show that only half of people are isolating for seven days when they become sick.

This comes as testing and contact tracing will require anyone who comes into close contact with an infected person to isolate for 14 days, even if they do not become sick

Behavioural scientists advising government "strongly recommend" monitoring how well people were keeping to the rules.

Sage documents showed keeping the R number below one (the point at which the epidemic starts to grow again) would require 80% of contacts to be found within 48 hours.

The scientists agreed that social distancing would need to be maintained even if test and trace was effective.

However, the government's testing tsar said it would be "very difficult" to get the results of home tests in less than 48 hours, never mind find their contacts. Tests at drive-through centres are faster.

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RedToothBrush · 29/05/2020 20:30

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/michael-goves-twitter-account-likes-22109804
Michael Gove's Twitter account likes picture of porn before it's swiftly deleted
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster's social media page appeared to 'like' a pornography image, which has since been deleted

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Sostenueto · 29/05/2020 20:30

South Korea have closed all schools after a rise in infections of Covid.

RedToothBrush · 29/05/2020 20:32

A source close to Michael Gove told the Mirror: "This is obviously embarrassing but we are not sure how it happened.

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SabrinaThwaite · 29/05/2020 20:41

Is that how Gove tests his eyesight when he’s not allowed access to the car keys?

Peregrina · 29/05/2020 20:53

That is supposed to damage the eyesight!

SabrinaThwaite · 29/05/2020 21:36

Is that why Gove has glasses?

ListeningQuietly · 29/05/2020 21:46

Snigger at the thread of Londoners up in arms at their kids having to pay bus fares.
Welcome to our world

BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2020 23:01

"It seems that a big obstacle will be compelling contacts to comply with self isolation and employers to divulge contact details. "

it is absurd amateur hour to still be farting around at this date with voluntary compliance

In Germany, confirmed or suspected cases are legally required to stay home 24/7, with no exceptions
They have groceries etc delivered, with help if needed

They are monitored daily and - as a deterrent - there are very heavy fines, possible damages to pay and even jail terms for wilfully breaking isolation

Employers and anyone else are legally required to provide details when officially requested.

Few people are hardened criminals to shrug aside a criminal record and serious penalties by breaking isolation.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2020 23:03

That's been the situation from early in the crisis.
Relying on public spirit isn't enough when the consequences are so serious

prettybird · 29/05/2020 23:04

Professor John Edmunds an advisor for SAGE says easing of lockdown was a political decision and in his opinion infection levels still very high and Sir Patrick Vallance said country still very fragile. So scientists were not wanting lockdown eased

Still catching up (having had a lovely braai aka BBQ with my dad - suitably physically distanced Smile) but .....I thought the government's mantra had been that it was following the science? Confused

Tanith · 29/05/2020 23:06

The “violent threats” excuse doesn’t make sense.
Surely, if they were that bad, he’d have informed the police, even had some kind of bodyguard?

Not scuttled off to Durham and back.

Mistigri · 29/05/2020 23:11

You know middle England is angry when my apolitical, floating voter, 80-something mum is sufficiently incensed to write to her MP 

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